Certificate not necessary

Discussion about courses, qualifications and teacher training. Please do not advertise TEFL courses here.

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Unread postby SMRT » 24 Jun 2007, 15:12

[quote="Niall"][quote="SMRT"]Many job ads say so due to formality rather than the assumed weight of such qualifications. As you probably well know, there are accredited and non-accredited language schools. However, the only distinction between them is largely the price accredited schools pay for being so. All the rest: administration work, lesson observations, etc. is just a well rehearsed show.[/quote]
Not true. The accredited schools are monitored by Cambridge or Trinity. The unaccredited schools [i]cannot[/i] award a Cambridge or a Trinity award, which are the only ones that really count anywhere.
[quote]Many clients believe that their teacher is qualified to university level lol. If only they knew the truth that their teacher probably has not even got a school leaving certificate, let alone a university qualification.[/quote]Sorry, I should have said that most places ask for first degree [i]plus[/i] teaching certificate.
[quote]Instead, their teacher paid 900 quid for a certificate which is probably not even accredited.[/quote]There is a clear difference between Cambridge certificates, Trinity certificates and unaccredited certificates. I wouldn't want to work for a school that was so unprofessional that they couldn't tell the difference.

[quote]The sad truth is that one does not even need any decent qualifications to teach EFL, even a school leaver can go abroad and teach English. I even met an 18 year old in Slovakia who was teaching EFL lol.[/quote]
Similarly, one does not need any decent qualifications to be a childminder, but I wouldn't leave my children with a nursery that didn't ensure that their staff had appropriate qualifications.

There are cryahothoomailp schools out there -- we know. We also know that they're as sh!tty to their staff as they are to their students. We don't want to work there. We get qualified and get decent jobs.[/quote]

In the UK ACCREDITED schools are monitored by either Cambridge or Trinity, but not OUTSIDE the UK.

The first degree is often a requirement for obtaining a residence permit in many countries. The certificate is required by many schools, but it is not an absolute must to get a good TEFL job. I have met many people who do not have degrees who teach EFL - even in accredited language schools! I have even met people at the British Council who do not even have a basic university degree.

Sorry to burst your bubble but many language schools outside the UK do not know the difference and do not really care.

The certificate does not guarantee you a decent job (whatever that means).
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Unread postby Niall » 24 Jun 2007, 18:46

SMRT wrote:The first degree is often a requirement for obtaining a residence permit in many countries. The certificate is required by many schools, but it is not an absolute must to get a good TEFL job.

Many schools is enough to convince me it improves my chances.
I have even met people at the British Council who do not even have a basic university degree.
The British Council take on gap year students. We all know this.
The certificate does not guarantee you a decent job (whatever that means).

Yes, everyone can see that there are jobs available without qualifications. When I left high school, there were jobs in IT that didn't require a degree, but I still went to uni, because I wanted a better job, and I got one.

Same applies here. I'm looking at reputable independent schools in western European cities, not the larger chains in China with their own standard training scheme. No, there is no guarantee I'll get what I'm after, but there is a chance that I might, which I wouldn't have without a certificate.

PS, if you're quoting someone, you need to make sure "Disable BBCode in this post" is unticked before clicking submit, or your message becomes unreadable.
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Unread postby SMRT » 24 Jun 2007, 20:01

Niall wrote:
SMRT wrote:The first degree is often a requirement for obtaining a residence permit in many countries. The certificate is required by many schools, but it is not an absolute must to get a good TEFL job.

Many schools is enough to convince me it improves my chances.
I have even met people at the British Council who do not even have a basic university degree.
The British Council take on gap year students. We all know this.
The certificate does not guarantee you a decent job (whatever that means).

Yes, everyone can see that there are jobs available without qualifications. When I left high school, there were jobs in IT that didn't require a degree, but I still went to uni, because I wanted a better job, and I got one.

Same applies here. I'm looking at reputable independent schools in western European cities, not the larger chains in China with their own standard training scheme. No, there is no guarantee I'll get what I'm after, but there is a chance that I might, which I wouldn't have without a certificate.

PS, if you're quoting someone, you need to make sure "Disable BBCode in this post" is unticked before clicking submit, or your message becomes unreadable.


Which western European cities are you looking at? If you have a degree in IT, you would be better off doing IT work than teaching EFL. There seems to be plenty of vacancies in that area.
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a lot said...

Unread postby shlee » 25 Jun 2007, 05:40

Everyone who has posted to this discussion has made their points for or against the need for TEFL certification...I am American, and was trained to be an educator...I have 22 years of teaching expereience, a BA in Education, An M.Ed., and I ended up going to South Korea to teach...I took a popular program that was advertised as online, which it wasn't...the price was cheap by the standards of most other training providers...I wanted to see why people were saying these programs are so valuable...I completed the course and received a pass/grade B upon completion after having 22 years of teaching experience...Now, I operate a training program that is truly online and offer the program at a cost that would be considered cheap by the standards of most providers...(Please PM me if you want to know which company...I can't advertise here without permission)

I believe the arugment of accredited certificates is an extremely senstive issue since, the country of your training, even for an accredited degree from a recognized University is no guarantee of employment anywhere in the world...I do know that most, if not all, of the training programs offering TEFL/TESL/CELTA/DELTA or whatever would not qualify you to do any teaching in a public school in the USA, unless the school has a pre-arranged agreement with the Board of Education for that school District...

there are no International accreditation agencies, period...We offer training through our program that is accredited and approved by the South Korean government, but what does that mean...nothing if the place you want to teach will not accept it...
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Unread postby bambang » 04 Jul 2007, 15:08

Actually, the most important thing if someone wants to be an English teacher is that s/he must have teaching skills. Based on my observation, lots of TEFL certified teachers are not good at teaching. On the contrary, lots of TEFL uncertified teacher are very good at teaching. The point is there is no guarantee that a TEFL cert holder is able to teach well.

I agree witht "SMRT" that the most important things you have to possess to be a good teacher are :

- the ability to communicate well in English
- an interesting personality
- creativity
- willingness to learn and to experiment
- the ability to deal with different types of people
- motivation skills
- and other teaching skills.

TEFL cert is needed?
I think it all depends on the institutions. Some institutions need it, but some not. To me, the TEFL cert is just needed as a gateway to apply for a job.
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Unread postby Alex Case » 17 Aug 2007, 11:38

I have been a trainer on 4 week certificate in teaching english to adults courses (similar to CELTA) where some of the trainees already had teaching experience before they come on the course but they decided it was still worth the money to work in better schools and/ or work legally (in Turkey, for example, you need a teaching qualification to get a visa).

All said teachers had got into very bad habits teaching without having training first, and most of them looked like they were going to fail the teaching practice part of the course in the first two or three weeks. Most finally came through quite well, but with on average with a range of marks only slightly higher than people with no teaching experience at all (who also often had the handicap of less life experience to help them). Certainly all the teachers would have been better at their jobs having done the Certificate first and then taught for a year or two rather than visa versa- without a single exception.

Ditto people with Primary school teaching experience and MAs in TESOL with no teaching experience

Conclusions:
1) There are jobs you can get without a TEFL Certificate, but there are more and better ones you can get with
2)You will do your job better if you get training first, and it will also make your job easier on you
3) If you put off training until later, you will not get as full benefit from it as you could- quite apart from the wasted years of teaching not as well as you could have before that you get round to doing it.
4) It is expensive, and schools do become training centres partly for financial reasons, but you will soon get your money back if you choose your post-CELTA job carefully and/ or when you start getting promoted. Anyway, it's much cheaper than any kind of IT, NLP or business training.
5) If you really think it's such a great money making scam you will need a CELTA etc. to become a CELTA trainer and so get in on the game yourself
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hmmm

Unread postby floydma » 16 Sep 2007, 22:38

I am a "newbie" to the world of TEFL and quite honestly, today has been my first day of even researching the possibility of teaching overseas, but I must take a moment to comment in this post. I am 27 years old and I do not have a degree; however, I was in the military. Therefore, subsequently I do have experience in "teaching" or as we would prefer to call it... Training. I am thankfull that I stumbled upon SMRT's post. He has offered an insightfull opinion and a passionate arguement agaist the usefullness of certificates. Furthermore, he backs up his position with convincing references and facts. Luckily, others have stepped up to counter his intent to prove that certifications had no relevence or purpose. Serveral times he calls them "Mickey Mouse". I am a fan of Mickey, (being from Florida), so I will try not to hold that against him. I digress. As the saying goes, SMRT has spoken out of both sides of his mouth by simply miscontruing the affirmative arguement and proving it to be negative. For example he has tried to make the arguement that just because you have an "over-priced" certificate, it doesn't make you a good teacher. I must give hime credit. That statement is true. It doesn't make you a good teacher, but, it will make a better teacher. How so? Well, through confidence, preparedness, readiness, proficiency, and professionalism. He will argue that you can be all of those things and posses all of those characteristics without a certificate. I rebut that the certificate doesn't ensure your actions, the certificate ensures the employers' investmet in you. It tells the employer that you do not need you hand held, you do not need to be spoon fed, and that you are capable of performing without months of on the job training and being micromanaged (in other words baby sat). He mentioned that many years ago there was no TEFL. Likewise, many years ago there were no certificates for engineers, architects, building contractors, electricians, surveyors... the list goes on. All of these professions are certified now. Certificates are created and recognized for a purpose. That purpose is to standardize and provide a level of quality to a profession or career. Reaching deeper into SMRT's argument by his logic, after four or more years at a traditional instituion, (ie. College, University), all you will have to show for it is a worthless, over priced, peice of paper with a stamp on it. This is completely contrary to common sence. Whether it is a degree in biochemical engineering, or a 1 month TEFL certificate, the point is that you have been introduced to the methodologies, procedures and termonology of your chosen career. And THAT is what you pay for. Not "just" a piece of paper. Not only is knowlege power... Knowlege is priceless!!! Besides everyone knows that more opportunities are offered to better trained individuals. My question to you, SMRT, is why would you want a person like myself, someone who has never researched this option as a career, has no degree, and a very limited teaching (military) experience to go into this blind, with no help and with the great possibility of being taken advange of(as it also says on this site. You referenced the part of not needing a certificate but you conviniently left that part out)? My questions to everyone else or rather that lofical, sensable, opposers of SMRT (smile) is what can and/or should I do to get started? Are there other sources I should investigate? Online or classroom? ect. Please feel free to contact me as I am eagerly looking forward to any responses. You may email me Mosesfloyd@yahoo.com
Thank you sincerely
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Re: hmmm

Unread postby ICAL_Pete » 17 Sep 2007, 15:11

floydma wrote:My questions...is what can and/or should I do to get started? Are there other sources I should investigate? Online or classroom? ect.


Online courses are a good option particularly if you have a limited budget to further your studies or if you have other work and/or family commitments that restrict the amount of time you have available to study. You can find good online courses that provide quality training and allow you to work at your own pace. Having no deadlines but those which you set for yourself is a great advantage. Working on a course with a flexible schedule where your personal tutor can be contacted 24/7 or your coursework can be submitted whenever ready has allowed many of our students – teachers to complete successfully their TESL/TEFL Certificate course, further their knowledge and gain better prospects of employment.

Being certified will certainly make you more marketable and, perhaps more importantly, it will prepare you for the job.

As for which course to choose it really depends on how much time, money, and commitment you are prepared to invest. There are quite a few good courses both online and onsite to choose from. You could start by taking a look at TEFLWatch.org. This is a site where TESL/TEFL courses and course providers are independently reviewed and rated.
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Unread postby Kameleonic » 19 Sep 2007, 11:24

I only read the first post, I got bored by the second paragraph.

My take:

I have met peeps with an M.A. TEFLA whatever it's called, and they are excellent when it comes to talking about why we do what we do etc.

I have met peeps with no qualification, and they are well-suited to the job, having qualities other qualified teachers envy.

I have met all sorts, and that is that.

I consider myself a 'grunt'. Talk is good, to a point, but in the end you have to get in there and get the job done. Got my CTEFLA 14 years ago btw.
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Re: hmmm

Unread postby SMRT » 19 Oct 2007, 15:16

[quote="floydma"]. Whether it is a degree in biochemical engineering, or a 1 month TEFL certificate, the point is that you have been introduced to the methodologies, procedures and termonology of your chosen career. And THAT is what you pay for. Not "just" a piece of paper. Not only is knowlege power... Knowlege is priceless!!! Besides everyone knows that more opportunities are offered to better trained individuals. My question to you, SMRT, is why would you want a person like myself, someone who has never researched this option as a career, has no degree, and a very limited teaching (military) experience to go into this blind, with no help and with the great possibility of being taken advange of(as it also says on this site. You referenced the part of not needing a certificate but you conviniently left that part out)? My questions to everyone else or rather that lofical, sensable, opposers of SMRT (smile) is what can and/or should I do to get started? Are there other sources I should investigate? Online or classroom? ect. Please feel free to contact me as I am eagerly looking forward to any responses. You may email me Mosesfloydyahothoomailyahoo.com
Thank you sincerely[/quote]

Well, if you want to get started in EFL then why not enter a country as a tourist and offer private lessons (let's say conversation classes). By cutting the middle person (namely so called private language schools) you would earn much better. And it is all cash in hand! In your free time study websites or books on methodology, etc, seek advice from others in forums, etc. Don't worry about not having a degree since most TEFLers do not even possess one and it is not necessary for the job.

Some chain schools do not even require a certificate, for example, Berlitz or inlingua (not the best paid but no worse than other self-proclaimed reputable schools), but if you are earning better with privates why bother? In some countries it is very simple to find private students. There are often times when I have to refuse because I have just too many banging on my door.

As for more opportunities being open for better trained individuals, this is not necessarily true for TEFL - even with a CELTA certificate!
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Re: TEFL worth it

Unread postby Kootvela » 20 Oct 2007, 11:12

I side with marko. People go to the courses for knowledge and making contacts.

marko wrote:I have to disagree with you on that one.

The majority of people who try to teach without a certificate will fail. The piece of paper you get is not why you go to a TEFL course. You go there to get trained and you go there to make contacts. For the price you pay it is very much worth it. Everyone I know here in Germany has a TEFL and the ones who kind of just dropped in to wing it, never got anywhere. Telling people not to get a TEFL is not good advice at all and 95 percent of them will be going home in a month with a the training
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Re: TEFL worth it

Unread postby SMRT » 24 Oct 2007, 15:45

[quote="Kootvela"]I side with marko. People go to the courses for knowledge and making contacts.

[quote="marko"]I have to disagree with you on that one.

quote]

To save your money you can also attend FREE or almost free conferences where you can sometimes get practical knowledge and make a lot of contacts.
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Re: TEFL worth it

Unread postby Kootvela » 28 Oct 2007, 09:09

SMRT wrote:To save your money you can also attend FREE or almost free conferences where you can sometimes get practical knowledge and make a lot of contacts.


Do you mean conferences held by publishing houses where they invite a few speakers about different things of methodology and language plus do hell of promotion of their books and ELT material? We have those in Lithuania but I must say the quality of such events is very very low, basically pure promotion of books that need to get off the racks because new are coming. But they give coffee and you do eet new people!
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Free coffee

Unread postby SMRT » 29 Oct 2007, 14:43

Well, I am not sure if the coffee is free at these conferences, but you do get to meet a lot of potential employers (and you often see people distributing their CVs).

I guess in these former Soviet satellite states they do tend to be low quality. The stress is on flogging textbooks, courses, etc.

You can also make contacts by joining a EFL teacher association. I have met some teachers who have no certificate through such associations. Of course, they tended to be more into private tuition (which pays more).

Another good means of creating contacts and gaining access to knowledge is by participating actively in newsgroups and forums.

I guess we are digressing now...
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Re: hmmm

Unread postby Kootvela » 06 Nov 2007, 19:42

SMRT wrote:
floydma wrote:.
Well, if you want to get started in EFL then why not enter a country as a tourist and offer private lessons (let's say conversation classes). By cutting the middle person (namely so called private language schools) you would earn much better. And it is all cash in hand! In your free time study websites or books on methodology, etc, seek advice from others in forums, etc. Don't worry about not having a degree since most TEFLers do not even possess one and it is not necessary for the job.


If the school does not require relevant qualifications, they are cheating on their students and abusing the teachers who took time and effort to get certified. It is not fair.

I am a private tutor now and if I were not certified, I'd have no students because all of them have asked about my education.
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Re: hmmm

Unread postby SMRT » 07 Nov 2007, 10:02

[quote="Kootvela"][quote="SMRT"][quote="floydma"].
Well, if you want to get started in EFL then why not enter a country as a tourist and offer private lessons (let's say conversation classes). By cutting the middle person (namely so called private language schools) you would earn much better. And it is all cash in hand! In your free time study websites or books on methodology, etc, seek advice from others in forums, etc. Don't worry about not having a degree since most TEFLers do not even possess one and it is not necessary for the job.
[/quote]

If the school does not require relevant qualifications, they are cheating on their students and abusing the teachers who took time and effort to get certified. It is not fair.

I am a private tutor now and if I were not certified, I'd have no students because all of them have asked about my education.[/quote]

Well, who said life was fair? TEFL is usually an occupation for kids who take a year out.

In recent years it has become a career for those who are on the run from the tax authorities and ex-spouses.

One does not even need a university degree to teach EFL.

In Eastern Europe, for example, it is usually a occupation for housewives.

Businesses - and that is what these private schools are - want to keep costs down and profits up. They do not care about your credentials. If you can teach a class and the students are satisfied, then that is what counts!

Berlitz and inlingua, as well as many others, are full of teachers without certificates.

Now you can practically buy these certificates online for approx. 100 pounds sterling. Selling TEFL courses is apparently were the money is to be made, since certified teachers in London, I hear, earn as little as 7 pounds an hour!!!
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Unread postby Kootvela » 07 Nov 2007, 16:52

I see what you mean and you are right in a way. It is possible to get a teaching position without a certificate but the chances are higher if you are a native speaker. It is not fair and schools should think about it, that it is improper, but sometimes the demand is so high that they hire everybody who pops in. That's sad.
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Re: Certificate not necessary

Unread postby systematic » 20 Jun 2008, 19:44

Although this thread is somewhat older, it is possibly one of the most important on the whole forum. It is a well balanced debate and deserves to be a sticky. Anyone picking it up here should not hesitate to read it all and add some up-to-date 2008 information. Read this TESOL course scam warning too.
Also, anyone who has taught in Asia or who is Thailand or China could check out this Thailand TESOL forum for more information, or to give a hand with anything that might be of use to the newbies headed that way.
I offer any information or advice 'as is' and hope that it has been of help. I am not an admin of this board, and my postings do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the board management.
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Certificate not necessary

Unread postby Malachi » 26 Aug 2008, 11:12

My experience is basically:
  • Beijing, China and nowhere else
  • CELTA after 1st year; Dip TESOL after 4th year
  • 8 years experience all in all
  • teacher 2 years; Director of Studies 5 years; teacher trainer 1 year
  • have worked for over 10 organisations in Beijing; have been to interviews with over 30 organisations; have recruited over 100 teachers and interviewed hundreds more as Director of Studies

China's current (official) requirements for a teacher in order to qualify for a Work Visa:
  • Bachelor Degree or higher (any major)
  • TEFL Certification (of any kind)
  • 2 years' teaching experience



Based on these government requirements and my experiences as a teacher seeking (good) employment opportunities, as a DoS recruiting teachers, as a DoS working with teachers and ensuring academic quality, and as a teacher training with experience training on both non-CELTA and CELTA programmes, I would say:

  • You can always get a job in China as long as you are a non-native speaker between the ages of 24 and 55, regardless of other qualifications or experience
  • Many schools are highly discriminatory when it comes to younger or older teachers (believing that people under 24 are unqualified and immature and that people over 55 aren't interesting and/or have health problems), and when it comes to non-native speakers or people who look like non-native speakers (I've had a group of students complain that one of our teachers was using Chinese in class - the teacher in question was Australian whose parents came from Korea, and she didn't know a single word of Chinese).
  • Most of the schools/companies are one of: small, locally owned private businesses whose owners only care about making quick money and don't mind if the company falls apart within 3 years; 'agencies' that recruit teachers from abroad and send the teachers to government schools or Universities - these agencies don't provide any assistance other than placement and handling visas; government schools or Universities.
  • Most of the companies/schools as mentioned above have ways that are either illegal or based on business relationships with the government to get visa's for people who don't meet the government criteria.
  • All the points mentioned so far pretty much go hand-in-hand. Teachers with no experience or qualifications, and who meet the 'students expectations' when it comes to age/nationality/ethnic background, can easily get a job at any of the places mentioned. Those types of teachers will find it very difficult if not impossible to get a job at any other company/school within China. The companies/schools mentioned so far offer extremely low pay, no job security, poor working conditions, no guidance or professional development, and in some cases result in either the teacher being blatantly exploited or even, should the legality of the visa come into question, deportation.

  • There are a small number of quality and near-quality establishments including some top-tier Universities, some private schools, and some internationally owned companies (eg. Language Link, Wall Street, EF etc), who do offer very good working conditions, are above board when it comes to visas and legal issues, offer good salaries, and plenty of guidance and support. I can't really comment on actually Academic Quality as that varies a lot, but in other areas, these are really good places to work.
  • These schools/companies are far less likely to discriminate (although visa issues sometimes cause discrimination regardless of the school/company's policies.
  • They only recruit teachers who have degrees and TEFL qualifications.
  • They prefer CELTA/Trinity Cert qualified teachers over other TEFL qualified teachers.
  • They prefer CELTA/Trinity Cert qualified teachers with no experience over other TEFL qualified teachers with experience.
  • They would absolutely hire a CELTA/Trinity Cert qualified teacher over someone whose experience and qualifications are in mainstream education.

In relation to the last point, I have met hundreds of experienced teachers who are not good teachers and a few who are - whereas CELTA/Trinity Cert qualified teachers come in two types: 1) effective teachers; 2) not quite effective teachers who are aware of their weaknesses and are actively trying to improve.

Also, having experience as a trainer on both CELTA courses and non-CELTA courses, I can say with absolute certainty that the quality of the programme of the CELTA course is far above the standards of any other TEFL course I have seen. Even to qualify as an assistant CELTA tutor, you have to undergo a rigorous Trainer-in-Training programme and pass assessment by both an experienced tutor and by a highly-experienced regional moderator. A TEFL programme can be delivered by pretty much anyone who can print off a fancy certificate.

There are good TEFL programmes, but they are hidden amongst the millions of rubbish ones available.



If you take the CELTA/Trinity Cert - you'll be absolutely amazed at how professional the courses are and at how much better your teaching is afterwards (and if you already have 10 years experience teaching, you'll be even more amazed at how much better your teaching becomes afterwards).
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