Why are Advanced level textbooks so crap?
I’m not a huge fan of Cutting Hedges, but Cutting Edge Advanced makes me dream of the day when I can get back to New Cutting Edge Int again. Ditto for Headway, which I actually don’t mind until it gets to the utterly bizarre selections of topics, language points and texts at Advanced level. Etc.
Why should this be so? Do they always get written last and so the writers have run out of ideas? More likely, I reckon, that the publishers know that the market is small and so waste very little time on them.
September 11th, 2010 at 2:07 pm
Gulp. Am just embarking on an Advanced level textbook. It does get written last usually but doesn’t have to be bizarre. Have just given your little list to my co-author as “points to keep in mind and avoid if possible”.
Of course blog posts like this often provoke calls of “please write a better one!” But maybe this is your plan? I have just forwarded your contact details to several commissioning editors at major publishers. :-)
September 11th, 2010 at 11:11 pm
Believe it or not, the moment I posted I thought “Whoops, Lindsay must be working on the Advanced level around now”
From writing my one and only book (Skyline Business Resource Book 1, didn’t you have something to do with that series too Lindsay?), I know I have a severe case of running out of ideas/ enthusiasm as time goes on, which is why I always posit that as a reason.
September 12th, 2010 at 7:08 am
Hey, I also worked on the Skyline resource packs way back when ! It was one of my first writing jobs. (thinks… oh my god, Alex Case not only has beat me to several of the topics in my blog posts but ALSO wrote the same books!)
Well, I agree with you about the weird grammar bits and obscure vocabulary. Had a long talk about trying to avoid exactly that. We will see how things go…
September 12th, 2010 at 7:14 am
The big difference is that that was the beginning of your writing career and the end of mine! Must do that “How to be more like Lindsay and less like me” blog post that I’ve been meaning to do for a while
The main thing about Advanced books is that most (I imagine) of the people who study them come straight out of Upper Int and so aren’t really advanced at all, more Pre-Advanced/ FCE. I think that is the reason why FCE/CAE/ CPE textbooks are often an exception to the “anything above Upper = pants” rule.
September 12th, 2010 at 8:52 am
I really don’t know but I think a lot of the reason is the influence of the publishers.
Many teachers do not have any idea of the real world their students are working in,they have never worked in accounts or personnel but the publishers are even further removed from real world language use especially in the business world.
The other problem is like Alex said above what does advanced really mean.
I have had many students who tested as advanced but really only on a limited set of vocabulary.Perhaps advanced books should be shorter and written in stages which gradually extend the vocabulary or more ESP focused.
September 12th, 2010 at 11:33 am
I think you’re right about the limited market for such books, Alex. The market for Pre-int and Int levels is enormous, but Advanced level students are as common as condoms at the Vatican.
Come to think of it, the Pope could do with a good Upper Int coursebook himself (ESP – English for Sacred Purposes?). If you’re in the market for writing it, Alex or Lindsay, I’d like to propose a working title of “Kissing Feet – Essential English for the Infallibly Busy”
September 13th, 2010 at 7:50 am
LOL. I like the perversion of the ESP acronym (no pun intended there Sandy)! Sandy, I will forward your short proposal to a few people and see if it gets any nibbles. We would need some good photos of priests and such to accompany this title as well.
September 13th, 2010 at 9:32 am
I’m reminded of Michael Lewis’ critique of “Advanced” level material in The Lexical Approach: “Perhaps an Advanced level textbook doesn’t need different language but different functions: ‘Sounding pretentious’, ‘fulminating effectively’, ‘expressing shades of irritation’.”
September 13th, 2010 at 9:58 am
Great quote.
September 13th, 2010 at 10:03 am
I think the biggest problem with advanced level books (and I’ve used New Cutting Hedge Int and Adv, btw) is that they attempt – based on certain perceptions of the ‘level’ to do and crowd in too much. They tend to be extremely dense (no pun intended), and it feels to teacher and learners that they are attempting to examine an entire encyclopedia.
The thing is, at this level we should be letting learners do a lot more of their own content and materials (if not writing them then at least finding and selecting them). It should be a level of freedom and looser consolidation.
So basically, I think the “less is more” idea would work a whole lot better for adv. level coursebooks, but publishers don’t see it that way, unfortunately – and perhaps don’t care all that much, given the advanced levels don’t sell nearly as well as say the elementary levels.
Seriously though – if you have learners at advanced level, why on earth are you trying to use a coursebook with them? You should know and do better, Mr. Case!
September 13th, 2010 at 10:47 am
Reckon I should go on strike?
September 13th, 2010 at 1:10 pm
Are you saying that you are forced to use an advanced level coursebook (and one not of your own choosing)? I’m not asking that to sound like an arse – it does of course happen in many institute settings – but I’m honestly curious.
September 13th, 2010 at 3:23 pm
This might sound naive, but… Do actual advanced level students really need a textbook or a teacher? Every time I’ve taught students using Cutting Edge Advanced I’ve felt like they would have learnt as much just sitting in a bar chatting with the regulars, watching films, or reading the Guardian or whatever. They’ve got more than enough vocab and grammar to survive in a native speaking community. The main barrier for advanced learners is culture, not language.
September 13th, 2010 at 9:18 pm
Yup, as with everyone in my chain and most of the teachers in the world, I have no choice at all over my textbook.
September 14th, 2010 at 4:27 am
I think it really does come down to the market for advanced materials being relatively tiny.
As a side thought – my limited experience of Advanced level students that enroll in classes is that they are among the laziest, most passive of the advanced level learners. All those that have any gumption have found ways to learn independently. Perhaps this is why trying to persuade the students in my advanced classes to be independent – use dictionaries, read in English, use self study materials – met with such a wall of indifference….they are in class because they want the teacher to do all the work.
I’m not keen to teach advanced learners any more – in fact I only really like working with beginner through pre-internediate levels. It’s just a lot more fun and rewarding overall.
September 14th, 2010 at 4:47 am
My experience isn’t quite as extreme as your Andy, but I think you’ve got a point. That is precisely why I found Alan Maley’s book on Advanced Learners to be pretty pointless, as it assumes all those things that aren’t true (he actually says so in the introduction) and anyway if they were that motivated you, and they, wouldn’t need any help!
Less negative review of the book here:
http://www.tefl.net/alexcase/wp-admin/edit-comments.php
September 14th, 2010 at 4:50 am
New post on Advanced learners here:
http://www.tefl.net/alexcase/teaching/tefl/to-be-advanced/
September 14th, 2010 at 10:23 am
I’ve got a small Advanced group now, and after the first couple days one guy (doing his doctorate in Economics at the Uni. of Barcelona) came up to me complaining that the texts we’d looked at (from Inside Out Adv., not so bad as far as it goes) were overly simple for him, and so forth and asking what should he do to make the most of the class (it’s a one-month intensive).
I had to bite my tongue to keep from telling him “Try dropping out and getting a private teacher.”
September 14th, 2010 at 11:06 am
Was he right then? If so, here are some ideas for class that first spring to mind:
- Get them to produce using the more difficult words in the text, e.g. “Make sentences using these phrasal verbs which you think are also true for other people in the class and check” or “Re-tell what the text says in as much detail as possible, using these words and phrases”.
- Other tricky things with the text like cloze or text reconstruction (I think there are online sites that make text reconstruction activities fairly easy)
- Lots of error correction and rephrasing what they say to make it higher level (no idea if it works, but those kinds of students like it)
- Personalised homework, e.g. lots of writing or photocopied pages on a point they have problems with or find difficult
All extra work of course…
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October 19th, 2010 at 8:08 am
New English File Advanced isn’t too bad.