Bruce Veldhuisen of TEFL International Interview Part 4
Or do I mean part 40? Anyhow, this was basically completed months ago, but did nag Bruce into answering a couple of extra questions that had occured to me since and got his reply last week. I still think there are some interesting points coming up, so if everyone gives some interesting and civilised comments below we might put the effort into polishing up Parts 5 etc in the same way.
“Business relationships of TEFL International
Do you or your wife own a share of or have a paid director’s position in any of the for-profit TEFL International organisations?
There are none. We opened the company in Thailand called TEFL International but that was set up to stop devious people from stealing the name. The school in Thailand is also a non profit. If we did have an outside EXTRA income we would be breaking the law. We do use locally-generated income to cover our operating expenses but it is only the lunatic fringe who have an issue with it.
So the company in Thailand called TEFL International never did any business, employed any staff or made a penny of profit?
This question actually points out a difference between US and Thai law. Both our US company and our Thai school are non profits. But our US company has far more flexibility. We can literally do almost anything to increase revenues as long as these revenues go towards our operating expenses. So we could sell franchises, or TI merchandise, or almost anything, as long as that revenue goes towards our operating expenses and nothing else.
Thailand law is very different. Our Thai school can ONLY teach English and conduct teacher training and nothing else. So I believe we have used that company on occasion to run programs our school is not allowed to run. Things like English Camps and Teacher Placement. We pay taxes on that income and use it, again, for operating expenses.
As long as there is no extra “benefit” we fully comply with the law.
Innovative Solutions- What is it, what does it do, what is its connection to TEFL International, how do you ensure its independence, is all this information easily available to people who might need to know?
It was set up by an ex employee as a recruiting and placement agency and I have nothing to do with it. We recruited and trained for them for 1 year. We do not currently work with IS.
As a non profit a lot of information about us is available online. One of Mike’s jobs is managing external affairs and he answers general inquires on anything to do with the course. We also have a seven-day, 24-hour admin staff that are trained to answer most questions. I will also answer questions too when people write me or post them up – hence one reason why you see me participating on-line so much!
A lot of the flack seems to come from people who had business dealings that later fell through, e.g. India. Can you give us some major examples of when this happened and the story of what happened in each case?
Its only one business deal and, no, I cannot comment now. I have filed criminal charges and they are in the hands of the local authorities.
There must be more than one example of business connections that fell through. To start with, you have mentioned above that your relationships with the University of Washington etc. broke down. If there are any other ones that people might pick you up on in the comments section, might save us both some hassle if you mentioned them here…
OK, let’s think here.
University of Washington was a quasi business relationship
Language Corp hired us as their “exclusive” training partner. We really got them off the ground. But when their Thailand operation became popular enough they split off to run their own course in direct competition to us. I insisted they remain 100 percent our partner or become 100 percent our competitor.
One guy ran our center in New Zealand, had trouble complying with the rules (without a shove) and finally could not make a go of it. He blames me and I have no idea why. I guess it is more convenient than looking in a mirror.
IATQUO has been covered in previous interviews.
If the negative things you say about the people in IATQUO and some of the other people you did business with are true, doesn’t that mean that you don’t pick your business partners very well and therefore people have a right to be suspicious about your present franchise holders etc. as well?
First of all, it is never my goal to publicly disparage anyone, ever. But when TI is attacked, and the facts have been conveniently twisted, it is our obligation set the record straight. Luckily, this has happened on just a few occasions.
But if I am guilty of choosing a bad partner in the founder of IATQUO what does that say about Trinity and British Council? He worked for both organizations in very prominent positions.
The fact is in business people often have different goals. Sometimes those goals are both ethical and fair and they still do not match. It’s just life.
The other major group seems to be companies that were taken over by TEFL International. Again, can you give us some stories?
Examples? No idea what you are talking about. The only thing that comes to mind is Buenos Aires-we (it wasn’t actually me but the Lead Trainer in Argentina) were looking for a center and were shown a very nice space by an agent. We were told it had been abandoned by the previous renter (with no mention of what they had been doing) because they were several months in arrears in their rent. We rented the place and only a few months later did we read the rant on the net about how the evil empire of TEFL International had “stolen” someone else’s staplers. We never even met them.
What is TI’s relationship to Media Kids?
None. They are a placement agency that, in the past, placed teachers as part of the Special Thai Project. However, we no longer work with them.
But your question brings up a great point. For months blogs and forums have claimed that I somehow secretly own MediaKids. This rumour seems to have been created out of thin air. But it was prominently featured on many blogs. There was also a claim that i did not really have a Masters Degree (MBA, Portland State University evening program, class of 1992) and various and sundry silly and baseless accusations. But here is one of those silly rumours again, resurfacing like some kind of decomposing body. It can’t help but make me chuckle.
Who owns and founded the Oregon Institute of International Education, what is its relation to TI and who is the Oregon Institute of International Education accredited by?
OIIE is a registered business name of TEFL International. This has been public information since it was created 6 years ago and the relationship is clearly stated in websites and print ads we have created.
It is accredited by no one. At one point my former partners in India claimed that the “Oregan” Institute of International Education accredited their English schools. It was certainly never the case.
For a prospective franchise or other partner, what are the advantages of doing business with TEFL international?
We are one organization that cooperates internationally as opposed to hundreds of competitors. We also have centralized marketing to bring you students.
If a centre was offering Trinity courses and was thinking about quitting Trinity (as you did and as happens surprisingly often for the same financial reasons as you), could they switch to offering a TEFL International cert, and if so what would be the benefits for the school and the trainees?
Again, international cooperation. Worldwide job placement assistance.
If your courses are cheaper for the school than Trinity or Cambridge (I believe that is why you said you dropped Trinity) but both of those organisations are also non-profits with no dividend to pay, doesn’t that logically suggest that you must be cutting corners in some way? If not, how do you make cost savings without sacrificing quality?
So you are really saying that Trinity (which flies in all moderators from the UK) and CELTA are already doing things the best and most efficient way possible? If that is your basic assumption, what can I say? I believe our processes are better, more useful and far less expensive than the UK providers. We do not need to follow others blindly.
How do you recruit and decide on business partners- from Mike’s story of how you offered him a job and some other things I’ve heard it seems very instinctive and personal??
Yes and my biggest fault as a businessman is that I trust and believe almost everyone. I wish I were better at reading people.
What are your guiding business principles?
Make it bigger.
What are your guiding personal principles?
“If it isn’t fun, why bother?”
“Be careful when you make promises, because every promise you make you need to keep.”
Tags: Interviews
February 6th, 2009 at 7:16 am
I seem to have got myself involved in another TEFL International spat without meaning to:
http://travel.booklocker.com/2009/02/03/drop-it-all-and-teach-english/#comment-141915
February 6th, 2009 at 8:24 am
Looks like more trawling by Bruce’s surrogates on various sites — it’s all obvious to us, but people new to TEFL don’t know the difference and get sucked in. Looks like that guy ‘Hugo’ is trying to spin an entry-level TEFL job in Southeast Asia and China into something that it isn’t, too – what a load of crap. If people seriously want to pay off their student loans, an entry-level job in Thailand or China isn’t the place.
February 8th, 2009 at 9:06 pm
This is odd:
http://thumbsitter.blogspot.com/2009/02/new-course.html
June 29th, 2010 at 6:56 am
Alex Case Says:
February 8th, 2009 at 9:06 pm
This is odd:
……………………
Odd?
That there’s a Tefl course in Indonesia, or that you’ve never heard of it?
Please contact us with any questions
Visit the site
Look around
All the best, Wayne
June 29th, 2010 at 9:03 am
Thanks for the invitation. Just visited but wasn’t impressed. The website doesn’t include any detailed information about who the trainers actually are, and without that it’s pretty much a complete waste of time for anyone to bother reading any further. I did notice, though, that it’s got some very detailed information about how to pay for your course. Thank you for that.
Yes, there are lots of courses in Indonesia. Here’s one that I think is worthy of consideration at this point in time:
http://www.tesolbali.com/about_us.php
June 29th, 2010 at 9:15 am
What was strange was that you were offering all and sundry money to get anyone at all to fill up your course. A new level of tacky TEFL money grubbing, imho
June 29th, 2010 at 10:00 am
Certainly not looking for any and all … if that’s the impression we’re giving we’ll correct it. Anyone joining the course has to have a suitable level of English and the skills have to be there in the teaching practices.
As for information on the trainers, we’ve used three trainers over the last two years, although Luke Polak is our regular trainer.
Your feedback is very helpful, and we appreciate it.
June 30th, 2010 at 3:27 am
“Wayne Duplessis
Surabaya, Indonesia – Lead Trainer”
wouldn’t be correct then?
June 30th, 2010 at 4:09 am
It would
i oversee everything ..but mike and Luke have done the hard work
June 30th, 2010 at 6:30 am
Can you please then tell us your three qualifications and experience, either here or on your site?
July 14th, 2010 at 3:38 am
Bruce has got himself into another online spat
http://www.eslteachersboard.com/cgi-bin/review/index.pl?noframes;read=30836
Maybe the recent emails to me and Sandy really were supposed to prompt us to start attacking him because he missed the attention…
July 15th, 2010 at 7:39 pm
That’s too funny . Ands that’s Bruce — you think he’d learn. They should just change the name to TROUBLE International. hahaha…
April 8th, 2011 at 6:52 pm
LOL you guys really are kind of jerks, aren’t you!
April 9th, 2011 at 11:04 am
And of course, there’s also one of your newest affiliates — UniTROUBLE:
http://www.tefl.net/alexcase/tefl/t-training/qualifications/cert/tefl-int/unitefl-thailand/
LOL.
April 9th, 2011 at 5:41 pm
Exactly when was it that most internet forums were taken over by people with the emotional age of a fifth grader? For me it seems like it was about 2005. i remember the “good old days” on Dave’s ESL Cafe when people had actual discussions about ELT and even civil discussions about TESOL courses. That is simply impossible now, and this site is the perfect example. Mean spirited and often ignorant internet hooligans–tough guys with keyboards.
Today, on a completely unrelated forum, I asked a question also unrelated to ELT and the first five replies seemed like the were generated by 5th grade bullies. The moderator of the forum actually sent me a PM apologizing–but that’s very rare–most mods these days are as bad as the rest of the petulant children they regulate–often worse. Its like Lord of the Flies online.
How can we regulate forums so only people with an EMOTIONAL age of 13 or more can post? Chronological age seems irrelevant. I am so glad my own children are not as arrogant and rude as many of you here. Of course their mother would kill them if they ever dared treat another human being with such little respect.
PS: its legal to work in Thailand without a degree. Just wanted to point out your blatant error–not that you would ever admit it.
April 9th, 2011 at 7:03 pm
So in other words, you ,too, have no answers to any of the points me, Alex, Billy, Bian, and Richard have raised about UniTEFL.
Yes, I think your comments are much better suited to Dave’s board, too. You obviously pay him bucks to display your banner ads all over that site and we all know that he is more than happy to hit the delete key on anything that you personally ask him to — you won’t find that here and should know better by now. As much as you would like it to be, the world isn’t controlled by Bruce Velhuisen and his advertising dollars. Thank god other people can have a voice.
April 9th, 2011 at 7:09 pm
I spent quite a bit of time actually trying to answer dozens of questions from Alex. To come back here and see his childish comments is sad and disappointing.
Its pointless you discuss things on these forums. if i spent a lot of time answering you would just ignore my comments or spin them.
its children like you that made me swear off these boards. Its too bad because some real information could be shared. But I have three children already. i do not need more, especially poorly behaved ones.
I can only imagine how pathetic your life is to make you so bitter and sad. Better you than me, brother. i wish you eventual happiness.
April 9th, 2011 at 7:12 pm
I could and would have a discussion about UniTEFL but Alex has proven his true colors and I have no interest. Pearl before swine they say.
By favorite comment was “its not Cambridge”. When that’s the opening argument, there is no discussion.
Brian Tomlinson says “hi”.
April 9th, 2011 at 7:43 pm
P.S. I wouldn’t exactly call that 100 post spat pointed out a few posts above by Alex a shining example of civil discourse by Bruce Velhuisen. If that’s not rude, then nothing is. And was done by a “CEO” of a TEFL company? God help us.
April 9th, 2011 at 7:51 pm
LOL I had a habit of giving back what people tried to dish out. I thought eventually people would try to be civil and have a rational discussion. i was wrong.
And yes I suck at being CEO. TEFL International is really struggling. LOLOL
Hope you make rent this month, buddy.
And good night.
April 9th, 2011 at 8:32 pm
“I can only imagine how pathetic your life is to make you so bitter and sad…”
Bruce, that comment must apply to you most of all. You are supposed to be the CEO of a major TEFL company. And there you are above involved in a 100 post spat being rude and extremely childish. And then you you make a special effort to come here and call other people childish in an attempt to discredit them. It’s more than obvious you never had any intentions whatsoever of answering any questions about UniTFL.Your business must really be going down the tubes or you wouldn’t be here.
April 9th, 2011 at 10:20 pm
So, Bruce, every time you are involved in yet another childish spat, it is someone else’s fault? I had nothing to do with that ESLteachersboard thread, I was too busy writing teaching advice, lesson plans, worksheets, reviews and articles to help teachers – well over 1000 so far, 99% available for free. Despite your promises, no TEFL International trainers have done any of those things for TEFL.net, and in fact I have never seen any of those things from TEFL International staff anywhere. The only time anyone from your organisations comments on forums is to take part in slanging matches about TI, and the other online content is overwhelmingly lies and near lies like this:
http://www.tefl.net/alexcase/tefl/t-training/qualifications/cambridge/celta/tefllife-com/
So, who is it who is incapable of making a good contribution to the online TEFL world?
April 9th, 2011 at 10:44 pm
PS, is it really true that Brian Tomlinson is aware of this blog post and for some reason decided to say Hi to me through you, or is that yet another shameless twisting of the truth for purely commercial reasons?
April 10th, 2011 at 2:17 am
bruce bruce bruce good guys only win, and the fifth grade bullies are only put in their place, in disney movies. thousands of people know your story. you have become wildly successful! bullies hate success. because success is something they will never have. you will never win. I’ve noticed you have not been on many forums for a long time. go back to your happy, successful liffe. and left the internet bullies do what they will
April 10th, 2011 at 4:43 am
Despite TEFLista’s somewhat silly comments above, I see no reason to believe that Bruce’s little empire is anything but financially successful. I fail to see making money out of these things as a real success though:
- Lowering the already low standards of our industry, and not caring because they consider all people who teach English for more than a couple of years losers
- Multiple websites, all of which have lies and other deceits about TI courses and their competition
- Setting up websites to slag off previous business partners
- Tacky marketing, including affiliate marketing (paying bloggers and others to recommend TI courses, even if they know nothing about them)
- Exploiting the holes in the law to claim their business is non-profit
April 10th, 2011 at 4:06 pm
Alex,
First of all, in this post (http://www.tefl.net/alexcase/tefl/t-training/qualifications/cambridge/celta/tefllife-com/), you apparently quote our website and find some inaccuracies that I, unfortunately, agree with. However, without actually providing a link I cannot find and change these inaccuracies (if they indeed exist). So could you please provide a link to me privately?
Next, that’s quite an opinion you have there about us. But, as they say, opinions are like anal orifices–we all have one. In my opinon yours is based upon faulty and/or incomplete information. I also have an opinion that you are mean-spirited, narrow-minded person who has obvious bias towards the CELTA and just generally dislikes people and things that have had more success in life than you have. Its my opinion and I am sticking to it. Its only fair.
For me the opinions that matter most to me are that of our students who, if you bothered to see our unedited online feedback (I am sure you were too busy writing your lesson plans for that, as you are such a dedicated teacher, but somehow find things on my website I do not even know about) which is generally very positive, schools which hire our teachers (and I have received no complaints and some very glowing comments) and… Brian Tomlinson who moderates every course by reading all end-of-course feedback, reviewing student assignments and final course competencies and grades and, finally, having a conference with the lead trainers of each course. Apparently, in your zeal to review articles for fellow teachers,you missed that too–they are all online and available for anyone to see.
So here is what I propose: I am going to send your comments to Brian Tomlinson and ask for his response. If he agrees with you I will admit I am a con artist, apologize and post, montly for the next 3 years, how I have been a complete jerk. I will also attend a CELTA course at my own expense. If he disagrees you have to post his reply, publicly admit you are wrong, apologize, and post, at least once a month for the next 3 years that you were all wrong about TEFL International and have been a complete jerk. You must also attend a TEFL International course at your own expense within the next year.
Deal?
Now I realize you are the real authority on TEFL International. After all you have a BLOG! And Dr. Tomlinson is only a world-famous Teacher Trainer with a PhD. Would you like to publicly discredit him now or later?
I am torn between really feeling sorry for you and thinking this is hilarious.
April 10th, 2011 at 9:26 pm
Bruce
You consider yourself a success because you have a large company and more money than me (although having chosen East Asia after getting sick of Europe I am now nicely well off, thanks for asking). I’m happy that you are happy. Being a born left winger, I have other definitions of success. For example, EF might be the world’s biggest private educational group, but because of their effect on the industry I do not consider them to be a successful educational group at all. Given that, I will never understand how someone could think that complaining about unethical and tacky business practices could be seen as bitterness and you will never understand how it is not so.
The rest is just more silly name calling, because you have no answers to what I am saying. You have agreed that your site is full of “inaccuracies” and the other things I have said are all based on things you wrote in the various parts of our interviews. I’d certainly be happy to interview Brian Tomlinson, though. Alternatively, I’ll send him a list of things that I think should be changed and will be happy to publicize that you have done so when that is the case.
As to the website, it took me about two hours to read the whole site, and you’ve spent at least that much time on here bitching about the criticism you get, so if you really cared about the truth of the information you put out you would have sorted it out yourself.
April 10th, 2011 at 9:31 pm
PS
From your comments it is clear that “Brian Tomlinson says Hi” was another “inaccuracy” and/ or childish taunt
April 10th, 2011 at 10:09 pm
On my “CELTA bias”:
http://www.tefl.net/alexcase/tefl/celta-love-and-hate/
April 11th, 2011 at 12:01 am
I restate my proposal that you have conveniently ignored:
So here is what I propose: I am going to send your comments to Brian Tomlinson and ask for his response. If he agrees with you I will admit I am a con artist, apologize and post, montly for the next 3 years, how I have been a complete jerk. I will also attend a CELTA course at my own expense. If he disagrees you have to post his reply, publicly admit you are wrong, apologize, and post, at least once a month for the next 3 years that you were all wrong about TEFL International and have been a complete jerk. You must also attend a TEFL International course at your own expense within the next year.
Deal?
April 11th, 2011 at 12:08 am
I also note here for the viewing public (not that i am under any dillusions that there is anyone other than a handful of people reading this site) that you have not sent me a link for the inaccuracies you claim are on the http://www.tefllife.com website as I requested so I could actually confirm and correct.
For a person who has no problems attacking others you sure have a hard time backing up your talk with action.
April 11th, 2011 at 12:29 am
Lowering the already low standards of our industry,
THIS is a very big claim. Do you have ANYTHING to back this up?
and not caring because they consider all people who teach English for more than a couple of years losers
LOL no I just consider people who hate anyone else who is a success a loser. And where you pulled this one out of your hat I have no idea. ANY basis for this claim AT ALL???????? Are there a lot of losers who use teaching English in South East Asia a destination of last resort? Sure. We all know it.
- Multiple websites, all of which have lies and other deceits about TI courses and their competition
Last I heard, having multiple websites is not at all unethical. But I have asked, publicly, for links of inaccuracies. No response from you, Alex.
- Setting up websites to slag off previous business partners
LOL and having a blog to slag off people you happen to dislike is SOOO much MORE ethical, huh? There is this thing called a mirror. Get one. But I did do this exactly once to a person who had used his wn website to make a lot of untrue clams about TEFL International. YOu, on the other hand, have done it… 50 times?
- Tacky marketing, including affiliate marketing (paying bloggers and others to recommend TI courses, even if they know nothing about them)
The only blogger I hire is Tim T who took our course in 2003 or so. Shall I send you his scanned cert? As far as I know, your claims are untrue.
- Exploiting the holes in the law to claim their business is non-profit
You just made a libelous claim. Better be careful what you state in the heat of the moment. If you have any evidence of this, show it. But that’s not your style (besides the fact it does not exit). if there is one thing every American knows, its NEVER mess with the IRS.
I will give you come credit. Greg of his infamous website used five aliases to agree with himself and slag me off and conveniently delete my comments. At least you do not stoop THAT low. Other than that, as we say in Thailand, same same.
And let me also state, Alex, you do not know me. You have no idea what I am like and have no idea what I do in my free time or the causes I support. You might be very surprised.
April 11th, 2011 at 12:35 am
And the tap dance of the internet continues.
Respond to a claim and prove it inaccurate… and its ignored.
Ask for evidence… and its ignored.
Make a suggestion to clear up the matter once and for all… and its ignored.
You have my Email address, Alex. I am now unsubscribing to this thread and have no plans to return. Sale old same old. If you want me, you know where to find me.
April 11th, 2011 at 2:54 am
In the rough and tumble world of ESL teaching in Thailand I have always found TEFL International and it’s CEO Bruce Veldhuisen to be square-shooters; they deliver teaching jobs to their graduates — and isn’t that the bottom line? I got my first teaching job through them and am now a happy expat living the good life here in Thailand, and I have TEFL International to thank for that. Anyone wishing for further background on my opinions is welcome to go to my blog at http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/TEFLInterational.htm
April 11th, 2011 at 4:21 am
- Sure, great idea Bruce – we get someone who you are employing to decide if you are right or I am. How about I get on Twitter and ask all my online friends who is right, that would be about as fair. However, as I said I will be very happy to publish Tomlinson’s reaction to the links here and the various parts of your interview. I very much doubt you will send them to him.
- The link to the affiliate marketing in question is above.
- Is this comment from the same Tim who you admit to paying to blog?
- The fact that you can’t be bothered spending a couple of hours reading your own website is a typical example of where your priorities are all wrong. Why should a large organisation such as your own need help from a blogger for such things? Will you only do something connected to basic professional standards if it hits your own pocket? Or are you claiming that I just made those things up?
- You stated in one of your interviews here or the comments that you were proud that most TEFL International graduates were people who went back home after a couple of years and not like the long term loser teachers who criticised you.
- I have never said that you are conning anyone. I still believe, however, that you and your organisation, especially due to your marketing and untrue online comments, are dragging down an already respect-free industry. I know nothing about the standards of any courses I haven’t taken, but you strike me as someone with no interest in education as such who happens to have found TEFL to be a money maker. One example of that is how you think you, as a rich businessman, should get more respect than me, as an educator with less money who chooses to help other teachers for free.
The major question here, though, is what your problem is with me having no respect for you and your organisation. Do you think TEFL International is entirely beyond reproach? Do you think that our unregulated industry doesn’t need anyone looking over its shoulder? Do you think lies on your websites are fine because you have a lot of trainees and a lot of money? I really don’t get your point.
I also don’t get why you think that I am motivated by bitterness. I live in a three bedroom house with air conditioning and cable TV with enough money to save and support my family, and that is all I need. Having chosen a country where I can get back to teaching and give up the teacher training and management that I enjoyed less, I am also happy in my job. I probably spend too much time on this blog, but nearly 3 million page views makes me think it is worthwhile. A lot about this industry makes me angry, but only in the same way watching the news makes me angry. I do not have and never have had any personal interest in the success or failure of the many organisations I have criticised here, including Cambridge ESOL, the major publishers and, much more rarely, TEFL International. If you change any of the things which I think are wrong, e.g. deleting the anti-IATQUO blog or changing your websites to take out the deliberately misleading statements about Cambridge and Trinity, then I will be happy to publicize that fact on my blog. Quite how you think the bragadaccio (sp?) and insults here will suddenly make me a TI fan, I really cannot imagine.
April 11th, 2011 at 4:25 am
PS
“exploiting the holes in the law” means respecting the letter but not the spirit of the law. How exactly is that libel? It is also based on your own description of TEFL International as basically a business on this blog.
April 11th, 2011 at 4:56 am
classic! let’s summarize. allow an international expert to be the judge? no way! I will compare him to my twitter friends. that will at least buy me some time. or perhaps confuse the issue. because I know I’m wrong. and I really don’t want to admit it. I love to talk but I have nothing to back it up.
April 11th, 2011 at 7:56 am
Is Brian Tomlinson a paid employee of TEFL International or not? Anyway, come to think of it the completely ridiculous part is not asking someone in his organisation to be the judge, it is the whole idea of “Let’s settle this once and for all”. I personally haven’t heard that phrase since the playground at school. If TEFL International does things I don’t agree with, I will criticise them, in the same way as I do lots of other things in TEFL. If they correct those things, in the way that several schools have taken false claims about IATEFL off their sites recently, I will publicly state that that change has been made. What exactly is wrong with that?
And what questions am I running away from exactly? I have answered every one of Bruce’s points above, apart from his request to spend another two hours of my life doing an editing job on his website for free to get rid of lies that never should have been there in the first place. And how exactly is quoting Bruce and the TEFL International website saying things and having nothing to back it up?
I should also point out the 90% of the text on TEFL International on this blog is Bruce giving his own story in his own words, and that I have done exactly one piece on TI in the last twelves months – a piece that is simply quotes from their website, ones which Bruce admits are “inaccurate”. Yet Bruce and some others seem to only notice when I mention TI. Could it be because they have no interest in anything in TEFL that doesn’t put money in their pockets? If not, where are their comments on the non-TI related posts and forum threads, for example the ones asking for teaching advice? And where are the magazine articles by TI trainers, apparently one of the largest TEFL training organisations in the world? Give me a list, and I will of course be happy to put it up here to prove me wrong.
April 11th, 2011 at 8:47 am
The more I think about it, the sillier it gets. What exactly would he decide? That everything I have said is wrong, or that everything Bruce has said is wrong? Or perhaps he’ll open an XL document and tot up how many things both of us got wrong and then declare a victor?? And how on earth did Bruce come up with those ridiculous punishments, and indeed the stupid idea of having punishments???
It seems to me that the amount of online criticism that Bruce is prepared to put up with is zero. If that meant he got straight onto his webmaster to change the inaccuracies on his website, that might be a good thing. Instead he chooses random challenges to “decide it once and for all”. I despair, I really do.
April 11th, 2011 at 9:51 am
He thinks that by stating a challenge that it makes him look like he’s right and he usually only does that when he knows that he’s wrong and has backed himself into a corner. Remember when he stated that he would refund students at CMU if Matt Kay didn’t have a PhD? Then after having talked up on an entire page how much Matt Kay was involved with his program (and even had it on his website site that Kay was the moderator for all his courses in Thailand) he then did a 180 and said that Kay had nothing to do with TEFL International!
Fast forward three years later, Kay then gets thrown out the university, sued by them , and leaves 300 students in limbo without educational visas….
Bruce’s promises are pretty hollow, so there’s really nothing to consider anyway…
April 11th, 2011 at 9:57 am
“Let’s decide who gets to marry her with a game of conkers. Aha, I see you walk away! You sir, are a coward, and everyone can see that everything that you have ever said is wrong because you refuse my challenge”
April 11th, 2011 at 11:01 am
Exactly.
April 11th, 2011 at 11:18 am
I suggest you quit while you are way, way behind!
April 11th, 2011 at 12:55 pm
After exchanging a dozen or so Emails directly with Alex and getting nowhere I decided I better come back and post the same explanation I sent to Alex. But I was shocked to see the rantings! Alex, I love TEFL International. Its my baby. But I have never sunk to inarticulate ramblings like these. Take a deep breath and walk away.. from… the… keyboard. LOL
I want to explain the problems I have with Alex and this site and then I am done.
My first problem is I have a professional relationship with Alex–he has my personal Email address. Yet, when he found some errors on my website he just posted about them on this blog and did not even bother to inform me.
I consider myself a stand-up guy. Alex. I never duck a question or refuse to respond. If there were errors on our website Alex knows (or should have known) I would accept responsibility, apologize and make changes. Instead I stumble across his blog where he revels in the apparent errors like a 5th-grade bully after tripping you. it was very disappointing to me.
And let me state now, for the record, that I have asked one of my staff to explore the errors Alex claims are on our website and report back to me if they actually exist. If they do, and they are inaccurate, they will be changed. it would be nice to have done that six months ago, or whenever he found them, but we were not told–or even given links.
Next his myopic attitude about all things CELTA and Trinity. When I read his comment that said “Its not CELTA” like that was the end of the argument. That’s just ignorant.
I also dislike his twisting of facts. For instance he has made an issue of the fact that TEFL International is a non profit but we are just a non profit because we exploit some kind of loop holes in the law. What? The only difference between us and most other non profits is tha we do not solicit or receive funds from the government or other such sources. People pay us a fair price for a good TESOL course.
More on twisted facts–this whole issue with Matt Kay. Does Matt kay have a PhD? He told me, to my face, that he did. I do not recall offering a refund to all students of the CMU course, but its been such a long time since I have worried about Matt Kay I might have. Its been a long time.
You see, long before CMU and Matt Kay parted ways, TEFL International parted ways with Matt Kay and CMU. The issue was simple–the course at CMU were not complying with TEFL International rules to moderate each course and ensure all students filled out the end-of-course online feedback. they were given an ultimatum–comply or quit working with us. We went our separate ways and I did not even know about their troubles until a few months back. Obviously for Alex to associate the problems at CMU with TEFL International is disingenuous.
And now the trend is very obvious. And I could give four or five more examples but I will not. Alex simply has a problem with me and TEFL International. Jealousy? Insecurity? Hates Americans? No idea. But its pretty obvious he has no intention of giving us a fair shake.
While his list of complaints includes things that are non nonsensical and untrue, I take great exception to his claim that we are lowering the standards of the industry. We are not perfect, but we do not knowingly make untrue comments. We run a good course. Our trainees like it. Its helpful and useful. They get jobs. I take it very seriously.
I accept criticism when it is fair and constructive. I assume responsibility for mistakes anyone in our organization makes. I do not accept and will never accept mean-spirited and/or inaccurate drivel. And that is what Alex and his buddies here are shoveling.
April 11th, 2011 at 1:01 pm
Sorry I hit the send button just a bit too early….
My suggestion to Alex was not some silly school-yard “my dad is bigger than your dad” thing he is trying to portray it as. Its to allow an industry professional with a lot of integrity answer the basic claim that Alex put forward–that TEFL International is lowering the standards of TEFL. I can admit problems and change website content if they exist, but the ultimate issue is whether we offer a quality course. We do, its just that Alex simply is incapable of accepting this. And I have no idea why. But as soon as I hit “submit” that will no longer be my concern.
April 11th, 2011 at 1:37 pm
As I have explained many many times on this blog (unread by people who only read blog posts with the words “TEFL International” in them), it is impossible for me or anyone to judge the standard of training on courses that they have not attended. Endless statements about trainee feedback mean next to nothing. If how happy someone is at the end of the course is the ultimate judgement, then I could let my students decide their own next level:
http://www.tefl.net/alexcase/tefl/t-training/qualifications/cert/tefl-course-trainee-feedback/
Still, people ask me for advice all the time, and so I have come up with certain rules of thumb about which courses I would personally avoid:
http://edition.tefl.net/articles/training-articles/avoid-tefl-course/
TEFL International pass certain of those criteria and fail others, which makes them especially difficult to judge. That is why I chose to just choose one of their many websites and analyse it in some detail, and although I mentioned some redeeming features it was basically a mess – including complete lies about their competition. Some people might think that is unimportant. As someone who has the reputation of our industry as their main concern, I think it is a major problem. Whether it suggests wider problems with the management, ethics, focus on education rather than marketing of the company etc, people can decide for themselves. I, personally, would never choose a TEFL International course. Again, I do not have some magical insight into their classrooms (any more than someone about to choose a TEFL course does), but that is the judgement I have made based on the quite considerable amount of evidence that I have considered on the matter. As I originally wrote in my very first blog post mentioning TEFL International, they are an organisation that I would seek to avoid, and nothing Brian Tomlinson says is likely to change that. To start with, nothing he says will take away the remarks of his boss on this site, especially on this thread. Again, more regular readers or people who have twenty minutes to have a look around will quickly notice that TEFL International is not the only TEFL organisation I would seek to avoid. In a previous interview answer or comment Bruce said that basically all 4 week TEFL courses are okay. I believe that the vast majority of four week TEFL courses should be avoided, for various reasons. Quite how he thought we were going to agree on that point, I really do not know.
In response to Bruce’s challenge, I have offered the space of this blog for Brian Tomlinson to say anything about TEFL courses in whatever format he wishes, for everyone to make their own minds up. I really cannot see anything at all wrong with that. That doesn’t seem to please Bruce, perhaps because he will be satisfied with nothing less than no one ever criticising TI about anything (I asked him to explain his logic, but no reply). In fact, it seems he is refusing to share the link to this post with Brian. If anyone has his email address, please email it to me (see Contact Me link top right – please don’t leave it publically here) and I’ll contact him myself.
April 11th, 2011 at 1:44 pm
Since Bruce’s challenge I’ve had various similar offers from other organisations I have criticised on TEFLtastic:
OUP “… and if you lose, you have to go back to school to get those decent A levels everyone thought you were going to get so you can go to Oxford University like your snobby headmaster expected”
British Council “… and if our management consultants prove that we are a better organisation than in the ‘good old days’ of so called ‘public service’, you have to be the first teacher back at our Tripoli branch”
Macmillan “… and if the next TEFL.net reviewer also thinks Global is all we are saying it is, you have to write the boring workbook exercises that no one else can be bothered to do for the next ten years”
April 11th, 2011 at 1:46 pm
so is lions are unacceptable but yours are okay? interesting
April 11th, 2011 at 1:56 pm
“I consider myself a stand-up guy”
“The only difference between us and most other non profits is tha we do not solicit or receive funds from the government or other such sources.”
Which non-profits get subsidies? And which other CEOS of non-profits use “I am richer than you, I hope you can make your rent this month loser” (I paraphrase) as a put-down.
“Obviously for Alex to associate the problems at CMU with TEFL International is disingenuous”
Um, think you’ll find that wasn’t me. And weren’t you just complimenting me for not deleting other people’s comments…
Also, it seems clear to me that you hadn’t even seen the post on the website when you called me a jerk, but suddenly that is the main reason. You didn’t contradict me when I said that by email, but feel free to say so here if you like.
I’m sure you do consider yourself a stand up guy, Bruce. I consider you someone who will do basically anything for the success of his business. That is not my kind of guy.
April 11th, 2011 at 2:05 pm
And even if you had read that piece before for some reason commenting here instead, isn’t it a bit like saying “I’m upset because the newspaper published the story about my mistress without approaching me and giving me the chance to dump her first”
April 11th, 2011 at 2:07 pm
Bruce,
How about sorting out the information about CELTA and Trinity on http://www.tefllife.com/faqs
CELTA is not “a limited certification for persons wishing to teach Further, Adult and Community Education in England.” I am not a CELTA fanboy, but this is not accurate. Any ESL job board will confirm that it is a qualification that is asked for or used as a benchmark for equivalence the world over. You complain that facts are twisted, but this isn’t exactly a case of clean hands and it has been flagged up repeatedly.
April 11th, 2011 at 2:08 pm
I’m off to sleep. Be good while I’m gone
April 11th, 2011 at 2:08 pm
That was lies. It’s not interesting. It’s telling.. seems Bruce struck a nerve but its fun to watch Alex spin
April 11th, 2011 at 2:10 pm
I must admit, alex is the king of bad analogies
April 11th, 2011 at 2:17 pm
how to any of us possibly sleep without more bad analogies lol
April 11th, 2011 at 2:34 pm
Posting here is exactly like having sex exactly. Except without the girl. Oh and the sex. But other than that exactly!
April 11th, 2011 at 2:52 pm
Sex is exactly like war but no blood and death. But other than that its the same!
April 12th, 2011 at 12:32 am
From Alex: “Which non-profits get subsidies?”
Cambridge University, which is the owner of CELTA courses, claims charitable status which I guess also means non-profit.
It also has received massive government subsidies.
“…an institution (Cambridge University) that has traditionally relied on government subsidy and research grants for about half of its annual £1.14 billion operating income…”
It also uses taxpayers money to invest for its own profit, although the taxpayer doesn’t see any of the profit either directly or indirectly through taxes.
“In October Trinity College spent £24 million to acquire the Meridian Delta Dome, the holding company of the 999-year lease on the O2 arena.
Last year Clare College, Cambridge, took advantage of low interest rates to borrow £15 million on a 40-year inflation-linked loan. It invested that money in rock-bottom stocks and shares, which it expects to deliver a £36 million profit in 2048 when it cashes in to repay the loan.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/education/article6975965.ece
Another one of these tax-avoiding scamsters that receives UK tax payer subsidies is the UK registered ‘charity’ the British Council.
“Of its total income of £551m in 2006/07, the British Council received £195m of grants from the British government. The rest was earned through charging for teaching English to individuals and organisations, examinations and consultancy”
In Thailand it’s foreign teachers also enjoy tax-free incomes without work permits (diplomats apparently – LMAO).
They use this massive financial advantage to compete against locally owned businesses that don’t receive subsidies but do need to pay taxes and obtain work permits for their foreign teachers.
April 12th, 2011 at 11:47 am
True, but in the case of Trinity and Cambridge it’s irrelevant because neither of them actually own training centers — they merely inspect centers and courses to see that standards are being kept. The institutes that offer the courses are local establishments and pay the same taxes that all local businesses do and they also pay for work permits. In some ways, they might even be at a financial disadvantage because they also have to pay for the services of Cambridge or Trinity, whereas local TEFL course providers don’t.
TEFL International is different because they do actually own some of their training centers.
I know what you’re saying, though — it’s all quite ridiculous.
April 12th, 2011 at 12:57 pm
I also do see the unfairness of some of those things, especially the no tax thing, in theory. What would the effect of taking the competition of the British Council, for example, away really be though? Would standards be raised and everyone be happier if quality providers like ECC and Text and Talk ran the teaching and teacher training industries in Thailand (that’s sarcasm, in case anyone hasn’t noticed)? Are the BC really competing anyway? It’s not like they are undercutting anyone on price.
It’s the same argument as the BBC. Yes, they have an unfair advantage. On the whole, they use that unfair advantage to raise standards in a way that, for whatever reason, the private sector rarely does. If you don’t accept that analogy, we have had an actual test of that with the BC. The British Council has abandoned loads of markets over the last few years, and the only direct quality replacement that has boomed in its place that I know of is Istanbul, and that was set up by the BC teachers and so would never have existed if the BC hadn’t been there in the first place.
Now to the actual details:
“…an institution (Cambridge University) that has traditionally relied on government subsidy and research grants for about half of its annual £1.14 billion operating income…”
That “traditionally” will mean pre- student fees or at least pre- big rise in student fees I guess. That means it is basically saying that Cambridge University gets money to educate students and to do research. You are also saying that they sometimes invest their money wisely. As they don’t have shareholders, the only place all that money can be invested eventually is in raising the standards in the university. I really do have problems getting angry about that. I also very much doubt that Cambridge ESOL makes a loss and so needs subsidizing from the University, in fact I would be very surprised if it wasn’t the other way round (unless they are legally divided in such a way as to make movements of cash either way illegal, of course). Does anyone seriously think that Cambridge ESOL runs at a loss? If so, where do all the complaints of CELTA being too expensive come from?
None of the British Council’s taxpayer money can go anywhere near the English teaching section. In fact, most centres are expected to run a profit to subsidize the few worldwide centres that are important enough to run at a loss, I assume meaning ones like Rangoon. I’d imagine that Bangkok is one of those profit making centres.
Also, TEFL International bids for and gets business training state school teachers in at least one country, and so are paid by governments to do that. How is that different from the UK government paying Cambridge University for the job of training their graduates?
April 12th, 2011 at 1:13 pm
Now, back to Bruce’s comments…
Having slept on it and come back to this, I have no regrets about my words or actions. I wonder if Bruce can say the same thing.
Let’s deal with my motivation, shall we? I think I’ve dealt with the bitterness thing, but let me state again that nothing that TEFL International has ever done has affected me or the people I know personally. I also have never had anything to gain from the success of any of their competitors. As to anti-Americanism, with that name and that propensity for public insults and threats as well as the connection to Thailand, I assumed Bruce was Australian when I first wrote about TEFL International. This is usually the point at which Bruce claims that the motivation is clicks on the site, so I should probably point out again that I get no income at all from this blog (if there are any pennies from Google Ads etc they go elsewhere) and anyway the 170 views that this post got were less than 5% of the TEFLtastic total yesterday.
My motivation is very simple. As I spent more time in the online TEFL world I quickly learnt that there was a large and rapidly expanding organisation that I believed and believe is having a bad effect on the industry that I am part of, and an organisation that I would recommend avoiding the many times when I am in a position of being expected to give advice. This thread gives a great example of my reasons for that belief and recommendation.
Let’s reprise what happened, shall we? For some reason Bruce came back to an interview in which I had allowed him to publically defend himself. In comments I had later linked to an online spat he was involved in and a less heated discussion that I got in with a blogger who had recommended TEFL International to get a few pennies from people who clicked the link, despite knowing nothing about TI and actually really recommending Cambridge or Trinity. Bruce’s response to finding those links was to call me a jerk. After more insults about me and the online TEFL world generally, I gave him a link to another piece I had written about lies and suchlike on one of his many websites. He then suddenly claimed to have always been upset about that link (the one that he had only just seen, and anyway admitted was probably true) and continued with the insults. He also suggested that it was my job to point out exactly where those things were on his own website, and claimed not to be able to find them. It only took me two hours to read the entire site, and I found the first quote I tried to find again in 30 seconds on Google. He then indulged in lots more insults and other distractions such as issuing a ridiculous challenge which had the clearly stated aim of stopping me ever criticising TI again, including presumably the next time I find lies on one of their websites. He also endlessly name dropped Brian Tomlinson and said he was going to report my thread to him, and then refused to do so when I asked him to do exactly that. Etc.
Having interviewed Bruce four times, emailed him more times than I like to remember and researched his organisation a fair bit, I have plenty of evidence that this little pointless spat was far from an isolated incident. I also believe that it illustrates several deep-seated malaises in his organisation:
- A tendency to blame everyone but themselves (e.g. I was responsible because I didn’t tell them about the lies on their own site)
- A tendency to reply to every criticism with the same refrains (we have good student feedback, we have someone famous associated with us, etc)
- Continually responding to crises rather than building a professional educational organisation that would stop those things happening (e.g. having this information on the website with no one responsible for checking for such things, and now this has happened almost certainly not checking any of their other websites until similar things are also pointed out to them)
- Multiple levels of marketing which no one can keep track of that make this kind of thing inevitable even if they don’t do it deliberately
- Understaffed and/ or no one knowing who is responsible for what
- A boss and/ or culture that believes that no criticism of TI is acceptable, and that it should be silenced rather than responded to (e.g. the Dave’s ESL Café thread I was taking part in that was locked, opened again so that someone from his company could respond, and then locked again before anyone else could comment) and a refusal to accept that there could be genuine reasons for doing so
- A willingness to say or write anything that will help their company expand, including lies, questioning of the motivations of everyone who criticises them, insults, vaguely worded threats, and entire websites set up to discredit their former partners (e.g. the website in question, anti-IATQUO website, using the word “libel”, and other responses here)
- A general emphasis on money, marketing and rapid expansion rather than education
- An absolute unwillingness to accept that responsible and non-tacky marketing is one of the basics of a professional educational organisation, despite all reputable accreditation organisations including marketing in their criteria (e.g. the latest batch of emails with Bruce)
- Ignoring or dismissing other important questions, such as the involvement of their organisation and trainers with the more general TEFL world through things like publications
- A more general lack of interest in, or even downright contempt for, most of the rest of the TEFL world
- A tendency to pick dodgy business partners, many of which even they have to later say were not the best of choices (e.g. comments about Matt Kay and many other clearer examples in the earlier interviews with Bruce), but with, as far as I am aware, no apologies to the many people who dealt with TI through these people nor a change in how they do business to stop it happening again
- Other typical problems of rapid expansion
- A CEO who obviously has some problems with thinking before he acts (three emails in less than a minute would be the most extreme example of that)
I have had all kinds of dealings with people about the contents of their TEFL course sites recently, and I can state without any danger of contradiction that this was the worst dealt with. Both the content of the site and the way it was dealt with obviously reinforce my impressions of this company and its CEO.
April 12th, 2011 at 1:53 pm
And for those of you who couldn’t be bothered reading the above, here is a summary of the “straight up and honest” Bruce Veldhuisen’s own words, plus some of the questions he conveniently ignored.
Pointless and childish insults
“you guys really are kind of jerks, aren’t you!”
“Exactly when was it that most internet forums were taken over by people with the emotional age of a fifth grader?”
“this site is the perfect example. Mean spirited and often ignorant internet hooligans–tough guys with keyboards.”
“I am so glad my own children are not as arrogant and rude as many of you here.”
“its children like you that made me swear off these boards”
“I can only imagine how pathetic your life is to make you so bitter and sad.”
“Hope you make rent this month, buddy.”
“you are mean-spirited, narrow-minded person who…just generally dislikes people and things that have had more success in life than you have.”
Useful and probably accurate statement, if one we had already dealt with fully in the comments section of the post he is talking about at this point
“PS: its legal to work in Thailand without a degree. Just wanted to point out your blatant error–not that you would ever admit it.”
Possibly lies, or even sadder if true
“However, without actually providing a link I cannot find and change these inaccuracies (if they indeed exist).” (lying, trying to turn the flack back on me, or never heard of Google?)
He might generally not know better, but that is not much of an excuse
“Last I heard, having multiple websites is not at all unethical.”
“Obviously for Alex to associate the problems at CMU with TEFL International is disingenuous.” (That was TEFLista’s comment)
Threats
“You just made a libelous claim. Better be careful what you state in the heat of the moment.”
Meaningless statements
“Our trainees like it. Its helpful and useful. They get jobs.” (That is true of 99% of face to face TEFL courses, and is a big step down from the other claims that TEFL International is equivalent to Cambridge. In fact, almost any native speaker can get a job with no TEFL qualifications.)
Plain and simple lies
“Brian Tomlinson says “hi””.
“I am now unsubscribing to this thread and have no plans to return.” (he returned at least three times after that)
“Instead I stumble across his blog where he revels in the apparent errors like a 5th-grade bully after tripping you.” (he only came across that piece because I put a link for him on this thread, and he had already indulged in half the insults quoted here by that time)
“I never duck a question or refuse to respond.”
Questions he ducked or refused to respond to
“So, Bruce, every time you are involved in yet another childish spat, it is someone else’s fault?”
“Despite your promises, no TEFL International trainers have done any of those things for TEFL.net, and in fact I have never seen any of those things from TEFL International staff anywhere. The only time anyone from your organisations comments on forums is to take part in slanging matches about TI”
“is it really true that Brian Tomlinson is aware of this blog post and for some reason decided to say Hi to me through you, or is that yet another shameless twisting of the truth for purely commercial reasons?”
“I’d certainly be happy to interview Brian Tomlinson, though. Alternatively, I’ll send him a list of things that I think should be changed and will be happy to publicize that you have done so when that is the case.
As to the website, it took me about two hours to read the whole site, and you’ve spent at least that much time on here bitching about the criticism you get, so if you really cared about the truth of the information you put out you would have sorted it out yourself.”
“as I said I will be very happy to publish Tomlinson’s reaction to the links here and the various parts of your interview. I very much doubt you will send them to him.”
“The fact that you can’t be bothered spending a couple of hours reading your own website is a typical example of where your priorities are all wrong. Why should a large organisation such as your own need help from a blogger for such things? Will you only do something connected to basic professional standards if it hits your own pocket? Or are you claiming that I just made those things up?”
“Do you think TEFL International is entirely beyond reproach? Do you think that our unregulated industry doesn’t need anyone looking over its shoulder? Do you think lies on your websites are fine because you have a lot of trainees and a lot of money? I really don’t get your point.”
You will also notice that ducking questions, lying and being childish were common accusations about others.
April 12th, 2011 at 3:46 pm
Alex you have now devolved into verifiable nut.
April 12th, 2011 at 8:20 pm
So, that’ll be more pointless insults and avoiding the question then.
April 13th, 2011 at 2:01 am
I have been asked by Paul, a trainer for TEFL International’s Virtual Course, to correct your error about TEFL International and online courses.
My boss has already mentioned that TEFL International has never offered an online course. A blended-learning course has been offered where the trainee studied components online, by web cam, by watching video, and, finally, completing Observed teaching Practice on site.
I am afraid this again confirms you post opinions without full details. I note also you have not posted my explanation of the errors on the TEFL International website.
Finally, on a personal note, after reading your rants, that I agree with Tom. No sane person would bother to respond to your diatribes. I am only here because it is my job and I hope never to return.
April 13th, 2011 at 2:06 am
PS: I fear for your students.
April 13th, 2011 at 5:25 am
I was just quoting your website,
“Our affordable online courses can be taken at your convenience in the comfort of your own home. Attend our virtual classes from anywhere in the world and participate in live sessions with our trainers via webcam while interacting with your fellow classmates. Becoming certified online is the perfect option for students who plan to teach English virtually.”
but I forgot, of course,that it is my fault when your website is wrong because I didn’t tell you…
That comment I didn’t post would be this one that’s been up since yesterday, would it?
http://www.tefl.net/alexcase/tefl/t-training/qualifications/cambridge/celta/tefllife-com/comment-page-1/#comment-32197
A webmaster who can’t find a page they left a comment on yesterday and can’t click the “subscribe to comments” box when they do so. I hate to imagine what kind of website you’d be responsible for. Wait a minute, no need to imagine, because you’ve already admitted that it had complete rubbish on it for over a year (you ignored the question where I asked you exactly how long) without anyone noticing. Thank God you have Bruce to supervise you. Wait a minute, he was the one who apparently can’t use Google to find direct quotes from his own site. I guess that just leaves bloggers like me to check that you are all doing your jobs properly then.
I think you will find that the rant is also a direct quote, btw, this time from your boss.
April 13th, 2011 at 6:00 am
the shoe fits but I miss you or bad analogies
April 13th, 2011 at 7:42 am
This rubs me the wrong way. You may not have wanted to tell them about the problems on their website before you posted them on your website, but you could have told them after you posted it. Since you are big on analogies, imagine you are sitting in the front row of a large hall and on stage is someone you know. You notice his fly is down, but instead of telling him, you secretly tell everyone else. You may not like it but its the thing a 5th grader would do. The guy called you on it. And rightly so. Now just admit you made a mistake, just like they admitted they had errors on their website, and move on.
April 13th, 2011 at 11:00 am
First let me say once again that by the time Bruce discovered that post, he had already called me bitter, sad, pathetic, a jerk and maybe other things which I missed with my quick scan of that part of this thread. When he discovered that thread, he continued in the same vein, but from then on claiming that that was why he was upset. And why did he discover the post with the lies from his website? Because I gave him a link to it here. So, does anyone seriously think I was trying to hide it from him.
I would have published it even if he had corrected it the day after I found those lies etc, because I seriously believe that is yet another example of serious institutional failings in an organisation that claims to be the equal of Cambridge. I could have sent them a link too, as I have to all the other people I have written similar posts about recently. I don’t remember which of the many possible reasons stopped me at the time, but here are some of the possibilities:
- I knew that that one site was just the tip of the iceberg, and that when I told them they’d just correct that information and leave the rest of that site and their many other sites untouched (as indeed their comments would suggest has happened)
- That they were even less likely to make the major institutional changes that are needed to stop something like this happening again
- That basically they still don’t care about that having been on their site, they only care that is has been publicized
- The many dismissive replies of Bruce to earlier, more general comments that his, and especially his agents’, websites were inaccurate, out of date and sometimes full of outright lies.
- A feeling that he could have sorted it out after those more general comments if he had really cared about such things,
- That it would lead to another pointless spat like this
- A general feeling that it was a waste of time communicating with him, as this thread and his recent emails confirm
Let’s make your analogy more match the situation shall we? You’ve told your friend a million times that he needs to buy new clothes, but instead every time he waits until someone points out that his flies are down and just pulls them up again, without ever fixing the fundamental reason why that happens. Worse, he starts a row every time you remind him to buy new jeans, quite often pointing to the fact that your jeans are unfashionable, so who are you to talk. Wouldn’t you just get tired of those conversations? I have.
April 13th, 2011 at 11:29 am
No. You come off looking like an ass on this one. Sorry but that’s how I see it.
April 13th, 2011 at 11:40 am
I am so happy to see that the bad analogies have returned!
April 13th, 2011 at 1:16 pm
Another Alex and teacher tom are just waisting time. Rather than writing meaningless one liners that are not contributing to anything here, they could be helping Bruce to cleanup his websites. Yet another example of misplaced priorities from that organization.
April 13th, 2011 at 1:37 pm
I don’t know about another alex but I don’t work for tefl international
April 13th, 2011 at 2:09 pm
Bruce,
Thank you
April 13th, 2011 at 4:36 pm
I am also not an employee.
April 13th, 2011 at 5:01 pm
And employee of Bruce,
Thank You
April 13th, 2011 at 8:28 pm
Thank you, Tdol, for about the only useful comments on this thread! The other comments, from both sides, make me think that not wanting such contributions was probably what stopped me sending the link to Bruce, but as I say I don’t rightly remember.
As I have noted on the post which is actually on that topic (this is Interview Part Four, if anyone remembers…), Bruce has had the site changed. All the people whose sites I have done the same, but according to Gavyn on the IATEFL logo post some people flatty refuse to take down offending logos or statements. Those are the TEFL organisations to really avoid, after the very very few that con in the strictest meaning of the word, i.e. just take your money and run. I have never claimed that TEFL International is in either of those two very worst categories.
However, there are also a few organisations that have the management structures and emphasis on being a professional educational organisation that would mean you could not imagine such a thing possibly happening. Their bosses also don’t get involved in public slanging matches. As between them the have courses available in about every country where TEFL training happens, I really can see no reason to choose a course by TEFL International or any of the other organisations whose sites I have written about here.
April 13th, 2011 at 8:39 pm
Some of Tom’s comments come from the same ISP as some of the Admin comments, and some other comments come from the same ISP as one of Bruce’s comments. I’m assuming saying that he isn’t an employee is just being slippery rather than just an outright lie, so I imagine that he is a trainee in Ban Phe. With comments like that, I don’t know why they don’t just reach over and stop him!
If the other Alex will say that he or she isn’t connected in some other way to TI and/ or Bruce, I am willing to believe it.
PS. If they have a full-time webmaster at Ban Phe, what has that person been doing for the past 12 months or so while this rubbish has been on their main website??
April 14th, 2011 at 1:31 am
I have no idea what isp is showing from my posting. I am not an employee for Tefl international and I did not use 1 of their computers to write this. I do teach in rayong. it’s not that far away. other than that you can keep your conspiracy theories but what I really want is another analogy. prefeably a bad 1 like alex number 1 not a good 1 like alex number 2
April 14th, 2011 at 1:39 am
I have a question. If bruce and I both use the same wireless in the same cafe would we have the same isp? We both like true coffee on sukhomvit and both spend a lot of time there.
April 14th, 2011 at 2:49 am
I am not even in the same country. This is really getting silly now.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:31 am
okay alex. are you watching me? where am I? alex is just like god.
April 14th, 2011 at 4:50 am
Alex, you seem to feel that having a CEO who is accessible and responsible (more on this later) is a bad thing. I would rather have someone ultimately available and accountable than a nameless, faceless, inaccessible leader of CELTA.
And I fail to see how they have refused to take responsibility as you claim above. it seems they did accept responsibility, explain how the error occurred, apologize and made changes. That is actually very rare and should be commended, not mocked.
April 14th, 2011 at 5:01 am
IT guys usually know nothing about the content. They just handle HTML and coding. If you think a normal webmaster would sit around checking the content of the website for accuracy you are not being very realistic. its not their job.
Full disclosure I am a TEFL International grad (Vietnam 2005) and had a great time on the course and later teaching. I am back in Canada now but have nothing but fond memories of TI. I certainly never felt duped or misled.
April 14th, 2011 at 5:36 am
Teachergirl
Thank you for your comments and your full disclosure.
According to various people from TI who have commented here, an SEO wrote that content (including lies about the Cambridge CELTA and Trinity Cert TESOL, all on their own apparently), and a later webmaster was given the job of correcting that. That doesn’t seem to be consistent with your description in this case. Anyway, would you dispute the fact that in a large *educational* organisation like TI, someone should be responsible for keeping lies, typos and out of date information off their websites? Or is it, as some people seem to be suggesting, my responsibility to sub-edit their websites and then inform them exactly what things are wrong on which pages?
April 14th, 2011 at 5:43 am
BMP
If you could explain to me what the positives are of Bruce calling me childish names while refusing to answer any of the questions or other points I have put here, I will be happy to read your explanation.
I have not mocked Bruce and TI for making the changes, I have given them due credit for doing so. In my quite substantial experience on the matter, however, almost all schools do so once such things are publicized. Would you not also agree that it is better just not to have lies, typos and other inaccuracies on your website in the first place? There are plenty of organisations who have systems in place and/ or an approach to education/ business that makes such things rare or absent. If I was to judge TI by their online presence, it would put them firmly in the middle and under quite a few organisations who are fairly notorious among people who know their TEFL. If an university had those things on their site, would we all be congratulating them on taking them off when a blogger pointed them out?
April 14th, 2011 at 5:49 am
Another Alex
As I wrote, I am not accusing you of being in Ban Phe, that is Tom. In fact, due to the wonder of ISP addresses I know that you are not. If you can unambiguously say you are not connected to TI or Bruce, I will be very happy to take your word for it.
April 14th, 2011 at 5:56 am
Tom
I’m officially the least technically knowledgable blogger in the world, in fact I have a feeling I got the jargon wrong and it’s actually IP address?? Apologies if I am wrong, but I understood that whatever address it is is specific to one computer. Certainly, you, Admin and Bruce were the only people with shared address in this thread. Does anyone know more about this??
April 14th, 2011 at 5:59 am
I was in IT for many years. IT folks are not normally experts on the sites they administer. They just do what they are told. It was almost not the webmaster who wrote the corrections. The webmaster just deleted the old text and replaced it with new text as instructed.
Next, SEO companies are normally hired externally, almost all of them work out of India. They search for common key words in the industry and use the newest algorithms to place these keywords in the websites to rank higher in searches. Having these people make huge errors and embarrassing mistakes is very common and I would bet dozens if not hundreds of other errors were corrected that you know nothing about.
Finally, its very common to find errors on websites. Educational or otherwise. It happens to even huge corporations. When they are noticed, internally or externally, and its often an Email from a surfer that alerts the company to the error, they are changed. This happens constantly in millions of websites around the world.
As someone apparently looking out for the best interests of accurate information, informing them of the error would have saved several months of misinformation.
Perhaps the best question should not be whether they “allowed” the inaccurate information to exist but if they indeed knew about it and knowingly continued it.
As a former IT professional I hope my insight is helpful.
April 14th, 2011 at 6:07 am
I understand that that is usually the case, and thank you for your explanation. However, there are several points that are different here. For one, the lies about Cambridge and Trinity were written in complete sentences, and not in a particularly SEO friendly way.
“Trinity…The course runs up to a year and is recognized mainly in former Commonwealth countries. Trinity certificates are not considered valid in many countries outside of the United Kingdom and the European Union.”
Who would be searching for “Trinity commonwealth”, for example? And why would an SEO expert write things slagging off their competition?
And yet we are meant to believe that the same person who wrote that wrote this:
“Courses English may not be a proper way of saying a phrase and neither is course English however as you refresh your skills, studyand paractice the natural forms of the English language will unfold into a beautiful tapestry of flowing language that you are ‘hard wired’ from birth for.”
Although Admin from TI said that he corrected the site, you may in fact be right that someone else gave him the wording, there is no way to know. I personally doubt it.
April 14th, 2011 at 6:19 am
IP addresses are not shared by the same computer. They are shared by the same internet connection so everyone in the same room with wireless would have the same IP address and sometimes, in communities, everyone can have the same IP, depending upon their configuration.
The person who said they found and made the changes is listed as “admin”. An admin@ address is normally not the IT administrator but the person who answers general inquiries. So, from my reading, they found the errors and had the IT admin make the changes.
And you claim to be technically illiterate you make a lot of assumptions on the internal operations of another organization. My suggestion is you be a bit more pragmatic and quit making accusations. The explanation was given and it was very believable from my experience with web development, web administration and SEO.
I am afraid I do not have more time to discuss this. I hope it was helpful.
April 14th, 2011 at 6:44 am
Thanks for your explanation. Is it conceivable that Tom could share two different IP addresses with people working for TI without being in the same building? Like I said, I have an open mind on this…
Could anyone please explain how that lie about Trinity is an SEO thing? Surely it should be something like
“Trinity College London TEFL certificate TESOL certification is a TEFL course for people who want to do TEFL from the UK”
Or not??
April 14th, 2011 at 6:53 am
By the same logic it did not look like something written by the people at TEFL International–it is inconsistent with the style of the rest of the site. There are often dozens of people working in an SEO company. Some have good English some not so good. And they may have found that on another website or discussion forum and used it. You would need to ask admin but it seems he/she is no longer available to answer questions.
When I was searching for my course I ran into many organizations that were happy to denigrate the competition. I never found that to be true of TEFL International.
April 14th, 2011 at 6:55 am
Regarding IP addresses, if they all frequent the same coffee shop as has been mentioned, they would all share the same IP address when they were there. But when they left the IP addresses would change.
Now I really do need to go to sleep.
April 14th, 2011 at 7:00 am
Thanks, and sleep well!
April 14th, 2011 at 7:05 am
I do not work for TEFL International and i have never worked for TEFL International.
April 14th, 2011 at 7:10 am
Okay, as I said, I am willing to take your word for it. In fact, the whole thing started with me trying to defend you from TEFLista! Does that also mean you have no connection to TEFL International or Bruce? If so, can someone please explain how all these people suddenly ended up on what was until recently a totally dead thread? Do I really usually have that many lurking readers who are particularly interested in this topic?? Honest question…
April 14th, 2011 at 7:15 am
I am sure most of us here defending TI know Bruce or someone in TI. That’s how I found out about it. So maybe I have my bias just as you have yours.
April 14th, 2011 at 7:36 am
Thank you. You could have just said that from the beginning you know…
I guess you could say that I have developed a bias, in that I now doubt everything that Bruce and others connected to TI say. I’ve also had to develop the same attitude to their critics, especially the crazier ones, which does make it a hard job! I must emphasize again though that I have never had anything to gain from the decline of TI or the growth of their competitors. It’s a year since I wrote about TI, and since that time I have laid into many unconnected companies, including many of the big 4 publishers and Cambridge ESOL. I once helped someone do their Delta through Bell, for which I got paid for 20 hours work at about a typical teaching rate. I have no plans to do that again, and anyway during and since I published fairly critical pieces about the Delta and that role. I once worked as a trainer on what is a medium-sized provider of TEFL courses. I didn’t even hear the name TEFL International until several years after I had stopped all teacher training work, and I am not in touch with anyone from that organisation nor likely to work for them again, seeing as I am sick of Europe and they’ve never been in Asia, and I see my future as in teaching Business English and publishing related materials (for free), which I much prefer to teacher training. My motivation is seeing something that I believe is wrong and wanting to publicize that and change it. I don’t see it as any different from my book reviews in MET, except that here there is a comment function where people can have their own say.
Thought I’d better join in the total disclosure…
April 14th, 2011 at 8:00 am
There are a lot of people out there with TEFL International certs. Must be 10,000 or 20,000. And I think we both know most were very happy with it. Regardless of whether they know Bruce or someone working for TEFL, if they wanted to flood you with positive comments they could.
April 14th, 2011 at 8:10 am
Now my bed time too.
April 14th, 2011 at 8:38 am
There is something about this that still rubs me the wrong way.
You criticize TEFL International because of errors and inaccuracies on their website.
You are unhappy about being mocked and called named.
You question the identities of posters and wonder if we are really somehow all connected.
What about the errors on your site? There are several that have been pointed out to you but you do not change them.
And others are mocked and called names on your site. I do not see you deleting the posts. They still exist.
Now you can say that most of the unprofessional posts seem to come from TEFLista. But it is still your site. Are you a professional educator or not? is this sit not your responsibility?
And, of course, how can we know if you are not actually TEFLista. You search our IP addresses and find our locations. Isn’t it likely you just use two user names? What proof do we have?
This is all so duplicitous. You want it both ways–blame and criticize others but refuse to recognize and accept your own errors and responsibilities.
April 14th, 2011 at 9:13 am
I had thought about deleting all the comments by TEFLista and Tom on this thread, but I thought it might be taken the wrong way. Any objections anyone?
Was I right about people having undeclared connections to TI or Bruce, or was I right? And why did people reply with slippery statements like “I don’t work for them” if they don’t think those connections matter??
I really truly don’t understand what errors on my site you are talking about, though no doubt there are some. If you can give me a list, I will be happy to respond.
April 14th, 2011 at 9:33 am
I know I should stay awake. This thread keeps gnawing at me.
So lets summarize. You are willing to remove name calling and rude comments of others only AFTER they have been pointed out to you.
You are willing to remove lies on your website only after they are pointed out to you.
I think I read how this is what even the worst and most devious websites are willing to do. Ohh… Now I understand.
I have never worked for TEFL International and I am not being paid to try to correct the inaccurate and unfair portrayal you have made. Do I know him? Yes. And because I know him and know your comments are unfair I defend him. Is that somehow devious? I think not. My relationship to him is not your concern. You should be willing to listen to people who know more about a subject than you do.
But we all can see you for the real you.
April 14th, 2011 at 9:47 am
So, when Bruce has lies on his website and then deletes them after I publicize them, we should pat him on the back. And when someone suggests deleting comments and I seriously consider it, I should be criticised. Who is insulted more in those comments, me or Bruce? And do I insult Bruce? No. And does Bruce insult me? Many times. Or maybe I should have a general rule that I only allow comments which insult me. I really don’t get your point. If you think editing the comments section of a blog is easy, please try it some time.
Now, what errors on my site were you talking about?
April 14th, 2011 at 9:47 am
first of all, that last post, classic beat down! I am still laughing. and we have all read the first 20 posts of this thread. no 1 is buying the story that you and teflista are the professional standard around here. you were having a good time at everyone else’s expense now just admit it and move on.
April 14th, 2011 at 9:51 am
if you want to find the errors, google them! Lol you have heard of google, right? hilarious
April 14th, 2011 at 1:27 pm
I think everyone can agree that all the comments on this thread have been a waste of time and be equally unhappy about how things stand. As I am working on what I modestly predict will be a stonking but incredibly time consuming to prepare lesson on cultural differences in the use of names, I really don’t have time for this anymore. Everyone can of course comment on other threads, as long as those comments are relevant to the thread they are on. Any continuing discussions from here elsewhere will be deleted, and continuing offenders will be banned from commenting. A very good night to you all.