An interview with Bruce V of TEFL International Part 5

This is pretty old now as it was part of the same interview that eventually became Parts One, Two, Three and Four. Unlike them, I couldn’t be bothered updating or sending the third set of follow up questions this time, but still thought it was worth posting given the amount of time and effort (mine and Bruce’s) that it took. If anyone wants to add updates or links to updates in the comments section, please do.

TEFL International and the lawAlex: Some court cases you’ve been involved in

Bruce: TEFL International has not been involved in any legal action.

Our school in Thailand was sued by a former employee claiming he had not been paid his final pay. He claimed he had only been paid 6,000 baht. Apparently he had forgotten that we had paid him by check and we had the cancelled check that showed he had been paid in full. Obviously we won that case.

In another case we fired a security guard for sleeping on the job but because we did not take pictures of him sleeping (and could not prove it), we had to pay him 3 months’ salary.

So, what is the legal distinction between TEFL International and your school in Thailand? Is it a separate non-profit set up under Thai law? An Oregon non-profit can’t have subsidiaries can it?

I think I covered this a bit earlier. They are separate organizations. Thailand is a school and the US is just a non-profit. Our company structures vary from country to country, depending upon what is feasible.

Some court cases you are involved in now

A few cases are currently in the hands of authorities in Thailand. All I will say is I and my attorneys feel we have a very strong case against a few people. And while I do not make it a habit of bringing criminal charges against people (and I have never sued anyone for “disagreeing with me”, as if that were somehow possible) I felt this time the problem was serious enough that the courts needed to be involved.

Have you threatened people with court action or calling the police without doing so?

Not that I recall, but I have not pursued legal remedies on a few occasions where I could (and possibly should) have. But the cases now are after people took things too far and I finally decided enough was enough.

Do you trust the police and court system in all the countries you work in?

100 percent? No one is perfect but most seem to try to get to the truth.

Is it possible in a developing country to keep within the laws of the American state you are registered as a charity in and still successfully do business?

Yes. I do not see the issue at all.

Bribery would be the most obvious issue.

I admit to paying off policemen every time I get pulled over in my car! That is the extent of my bribery experience and, obviously, it has nothing to do with business.

I have seen the accusation and I know the guy making it. And, again, that will be resolved in a court with judges.

 
TEFL International and the Internet

Looking at what has happened in the comments to the first interview, can you see my point about just leaving them to it usually being the best approach for the management of the company being talked about?

And leave that kind of crap unanswered? Would you honestly say you would ignore these kinds of attacks if you were running a business? I care about the company, the staff and the clients.. So when there are untruthful and slanderous attacks on the company, I feel obliged to respond. Especially when I see that such attacks are attempting to devalue the qualifications our grads have worked so hard to earn. Isn’t that what you would expect from a businessman that cared about his company and clients? Also, the way some posters operate is that they use their posts as proof that something exists in future posts, simply because it was up and no one responded form our side. An example is that Vince deserved a thoughtful response to his complaint and I believe I showed we took his complaint seriously.

Actually, Paul Lowe of Windsor TEFL set up a blog accusing me of “race hate crime”, including quotes that I have never said. After a little giggle and checking that it was so insane that no one could ever take it seriously, I decided to ignore it. And being ignored, he soon forgot about it. As a purely practical method, it seems to work better to me.

But I believe anyone can see the radically different circumstances we find ourselves in. Like it or not, I am the name behind a very large international Teacher Training organization. You are a Teacher Trainer working for a school in Japan. Outside of your employer, the entire world could think you are a slug and it impacts you… not at all.

For us, we have people doing internet research and they come across these crazy accusations. If we do not respond people have no choice but to assume they are true and, unlike in your case, it could be detrimental to our business.

Looking back, can you think of times when it would’ve been better not to have commented on TEFL blogs and forums?

Probably. But the reason I participated in your blog is because, out of the blue, you named me one of the 3 worst people in TEFL without any direct experience with me! Quite frankly, I had never read or seen your blog before then. Suddenly you began claiming I am some kind of bad guy for reasons that made no sense to me. I would not have the guts to do that to someone I had never even met. But I certainly felt compelled to respond!

Have you written some things you’ve later regretted?

Of course. And I have apologized on the occasions when I’ve realized I was wrong. I will let you know if I ever reach perfection… Don’t hold your breath! LOL

Specifically, I’ve seen at least one comment claiming to be from you about sleeping with dogs. Was that a rush of blood to the head, taken out of context, not really from you?

It was me and, it wasn’t just dogs. It also included sheep and hamsters! If you read the whole thread, you would understand. As the owner of that particular site said, I was just getting into the spirit of things. It was an analogy to make a point. Some of these posters seem to literally make things up out of thin air, post it on multiple websites and then use each other as “evidence”. So I decided to claim one of the posters was into bestiality, complete with multiple usernames confirming it and even interviews with the victimized animals. I was attempting to show that anyone can make something up and prove it by having different usernames and posting on multiple sites. It wasn’t meant as a literal accusation and it proves the point because since it was taken out of context (taken literally), it has been seen as something “truthful” which if you read the conversation, you can see it isn’t. My claim was just as valid as theirs. It had just as much evidence. Obviously I was being ironic (and everyone knew it), but it made a point. Just because someone posts it on the internet and claims its true does not make it true.

But I found it very revealing that the guy I made the claim about correctly identified hamster noises as “squeak squeak squeak”. Interesting, VERY interesting!

So, why do you think most CEOs avoid commenting online? I could make a post about how OUP and Cambridge ESOL use Cambodian baby skins to make the paper for their books and certificates and I could be sure they wouldn’t even comment.

Well would anyone believe such a claim? And who are the CEOs? I have no idea and I bet you don’t either. Besides those companies are HUGE and have full-time PR staff (not to mention full-time legal departments that would be in touch with your host before you could turn around).

Remember, the accusations on “the website that has now been closed down” were on page 5 or 10 before I even KNEW about them. It’s not like they were going to go away without a response.

Nike was accused of using child labour in their factories. Phil Knight responded. Just one example of thousands of CEOs, CEOs with far better resources than I, who have directly responded to untrue attacks.

And, finally, I am not some passive guy that sits around doing nothing. If I were, do you think TEFL International would be what it is today? I am, and will always be, someone who will get involved.

 

Can you tell us something about your relationship with Dave’s ESL Café

I have been a fan of the site since the beginning. I was his first advertiser. I am probably his largest advertiser. And I have no more influence over content than you do. Dave has a policy that no one can attack individuals, schools or companies on his site. If I posted an attack on you by name, it would be automatically deleted. If you saw something on the site you did not like, and you emailed him, he would delete it for you, no questions asked.

I recall asking Dave to delete a post I felt was libellous a few years back, but it has been at least two or three years.

How often are you personally in contact with Dave or anyone else above the level of a moderator, and about what?

With Dave-every month when I tell him I paid him. But we are not close or anything. For instance, he never calls me when he comes to Thailand and we have only met 3 or 4 times. Nice guy but he keeps to himself.

His moderators? Mike got in trouble last month for posting a response to an attack and using the guy’s name. The thread was locked and Mike was told to revise his response before it could be posted.

I think that is the ONLY time I have been in touch with one of his Mods.

Dave’s has got a reputation for having some policies and moderators that have driven people away to use and set up other sites where they are more free to say what they like. Can you see where those ideas are coming from?

Sure! People like to complain and Dave does not allow a lot of complaint. But Dave understands that, like it or not, he is responsible for every word on his site.

Your relationship with ESL Judge

Do you personally know the person who set it up?

Yep!

How and at what stage did you get involved in funding it?

Well, long story. A few months back, an acquaintance of mine suggested ESL Judge as a good idea to help really resolve teacher-employer disputes, because he saw that current websites claiming to do so (such as TW) were not in fact doing it, but rather being just a billboard for people to rant on. I thought it was a great idea because it was constructive, not simply destructive. A way to solve problems instead of just bitching and, in some cases, just making things up.

The guy was just starting the site and was limited in his knowledge of IT, so all we did was make our IT team available to him and give him a few suggestions. I suppose that is technically “funding” it but it literally cost me nothing because our IT staff work full time.

Why does the site still not give such information?

What info? That we allowed our IT team to help out? Is that really big news? Is there anything on that site that is the slightest bit controversial? We didn’t ask to be advertised as promoters of the site, because the guy didn’t want advertising on his site and we didn’t really do much except lend him our IT team. Last I spoke to him (couple of months ago); he mentioned he now has a list of dozens of moderators from all over the world.

I meant that there is still no information on the site about who set it up and who runs it.

I think he fears that eventually his site will anger schools that consistently cheat teachers and refuse to resolve the issues. And maybe he learned a lesson from me-do not become an unintentional TEFL icon…

Can you log into the owner’s part of the site?

I was given the password by the IT team when they first started the site, so I could check it out but as far as I know, the passwords were changed long ago. Why would I want to log into the site?

I also registered as one of his first arbitrators. In fact, we referred one of our graduates to ESLJudge and he became one of its first success stories. The guy was trying to get money from his Hong Kong employer who dismissed him without cause and without sufficient notice. ESL Judge had just started soliciting for volunteer arbitrators that have a legal background, this guy needed help ASAP and I have studied enough contract law to be dangerous LOL. I am also a former school owner / manager in Hong Kong (and I still have a few lawyer friends still there). I was glad I was able to help the guy out. He was very stressed out about the situation at the time, but he wrote me and said both my advice and the process he went through on ESL Judge was extremely helpful when he did have to go to court. And in the end ESLJudge helped him get a settlement payment from his school.

So, if EF or International House got secretly involved in the setting up or running of a site that graded all schools including their own and yours (their competitor), you wouldn’t see a problem with that, e.g. if they took over TEFLWatch and continued running it?

As far as I can see, ESLJudge is nothing about TEFL courses. It is about schools and employees. TEFL International is nothing at all like EF or IH, both major English schools with thousands of employees. In fact, it would seem that it is our RESPONSIBILITY to do what we can to protect teachers. The better experience they have, the more likely their sister or cousin or friend will want to join them.

Misc

Could post-course feedback be improved, if only to take away ammunition from people who claim it’s unfair? For example, could it be left until after people have got their certificates, if only as an option or as a second lot of feedback after people have had a chance to reflect on their experience?

I am afraid if you left it until after they got their certs and left the number of participants would be limited to the very few-and probably only those who were unhappy! We do not sit looking over their shoulder. They each get 5 minutes in private at the com. On the last day of the course, the trainers / admin staff set up computers in the school to the on-line feedback page, so that it is easy and only takes a few minutes. I am sure some write nothing, but most do and that’s the whole point! Lots of grads have picked up their certs beforehand (while waiting for a turn at the com) and filled it out on-line months later (you can see this if you look at the dates feedback has been filled out and the course end date of that posted trainee).

I really feel this public, on-line end-of-course feedback is better than the “behind doors” process of Trinity and CELTA. And no, we don’t threaten or blackmail grads into filling it out – there are lots of grads that have their certs and NEVER filled it out. However, I do know that CELTA and Trinity require course participants to give feedback to moderators or they DON’T get their certificates. So who’s the bully again?

Couldn’t you get them to write it on paper and stick it away somewhere in an unopened sealed envelope until they have got their certs?

And will you then volunteer to type it all up so it’s available online? Take some time to read the feedback. Some people rip on us! (Luckily it is a small minority.) Do they seem at all inhibited in their comments? We even solicit complaints in the feedback. Without criticism we cannot improve.

The fact is we have never had a single complaint from an actual student (not even an anonymous note in the “Suggestions” box) so I just wonder what all the fuss is about. It works fine, everyone INVOLVED is happy with it, I see no reason to fix what is not broken.

Have you or anyone else connected in any way to TEFL International contacted your critics’ workplaces or families?

The accusation about me or my staff harassing these people is pure fiction! Absolute malarkey! I can think of two occasions where we contacted critics or their families. Both were for legitimate professional reasons and both were done very politely and professionally.

But, hey, people can make up anything they want and post it on the internet.

And workplaces?

I can think of one example. A few years ago someone posted an inaccurate depiction of our course. The guy had not done his homework and many of his “facts” were completely off base. In an effort to give his post more credibility he listed his qualifications and current position. The way it was written, he seemed to be claiming that he was, in fact, speaking on behalf of his employer (a university).

In response I sent the poster an email clarifying the inaccuracies in the post and another Email to his department head, quoting the original post, and asking if the poster was indeed speaking as a representative of the university. I never received a response.

Did you promise to retire? Are you semi-retired? Why/ why not/ how etc?

I had decided to give up my position as CEO. After Xmas, I realized I had been in the business at the bottom level for over a decade. And I had successfully lead TEFL International from a school in Thailand to the largest independent training institute in the world. Do anything for ten years .. and you’d feel like you wanted a change to, right? Well, I wanted to put my talents into other things – such as a car restoration business I’m still keen on. A secondary, but not main, factor to the resignation were the personal attacks on myself and my family by anonymous posters websites that continued to spiral out of control. So I felt that would be a good time to make my exit from the industry so that the personal untruthful attacks wouldn’t affect our current and former clients who worked hard for their qualifications and don’t deserve to be dragged through a war-of-words by a few nuts. And you, Alex, have seen what they are capable of-some of these people really cross the line at every opportunity.

So after Christmas I felt it was a good a time as any to remove myself as “captain of the ship”. However, months later I realized that my staff, partners and clients were still calling me daily for advice – and the BOD had been reluctant to offer the position to anyone else–so I felt like I was still involved. Even more so, I realized I really do love the job and not only that, but I believe I’ve done some really good things in the world with TEFL International and can do even more in the future as the world starts to communicate more. So recently, I’ve decided I’m going to stick it out for longer.

This entry was posted on Tuesday, April 14th, 2009 at 11:45 am and is filed under Bruce Veldhuisen, Cambridge ESOL, CELTA, Dave Sperling's ESL Cafe, Dodgy TEFL courses, Dodgy TEFL school owners, Teacher forums, Teacher training, Teaching English Abroad, Teaching English in Thailand, TEFL, TEFL celebs/ TEFL heroes and villains, TEFL certificate, TEFL chains, TEFL forums, TEFL International, TEFL qualifications, TEFL scams, TEFL School Reviews, TEFLwatch, Trinity, Trinity CertTESOL. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.